Unmarked blade M33 SS - opinions sought

[akriener]

Hello all, seeking opinions on this M33 SS dagger with unmarked blade.

Possible ground Röhm
Certain parts have been cleaned/polished
Possible unit stamping on lower cross guard?
Possible scabbard re-paint

Thank you!

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[JR.]

My analysis is that it's a Herder ground Rohm, 3rd SS regiment 85th standardt. These were property owned daggers most likely, as I've seen others very much the same. Mismatched RZM scabbard.

[akriener]

My analysis is that it's a Herder ground Rohm, 3rd SS regiment 85th standardt. These were property owned daggers most likely, as I've seen others very much the same. Mismatched RZM scabbard.

JR, thanks for your analysis.

Can you expand on what you mean by property owned daggers?

What would you value something like this at? It is an auction piece in the next couple days.

[JR.]

At times an SS district would own several edged weapons as this dagger, and they were loaned out to soldiers taking part in a parade or ceremony to be worn for that event. Hence being property marked that you see with the 3rd Regiment, 85th Standart.

[akriener]

Thank you JR!

[Billy G]

Looks like a 3rd Regiment mark stamped into the grip in pictures 4 and 8, pretty cool.

[akriener]

Looks like a 3rd Regiment mark stamped into the grip in pictures 4 and 8, pretty cool.

Just curious what this is worth even with mismatched RZM scabbard. It’s an auction piece tomorrow.

[JR.]

3rd Reg, 85th Standarte

[Frogprince]

Not a native German speaker myself, I believe that using the terminology/usage of the time Standardarten and Regiments were comparable. And the Roman numeral would possibly be for an Abschnitt, and Arabic for the Standarten, that could have been be broken down to the Stürme (if desired). The markings themselves looking to me (in the images) like a combination of an ordinary stamp and some other technique or techniques. FP

[akriener]

A member of this forum on another forum was of the opinion that:

• They are firm that it is a parts dagger
• An M33 Dagger should have a Makers Mark on the reverse side of the blade. The Seller is claiming “must be because it’s a ground Röhm” . . . that’s just complete and utter fabrication to explain the blade missing a very important feature
• Believe the Blade is from an M36 Dagger, which normally featured a Chained Scabbard. This Scabbard is definitely from an RZM Dagger
• Crossguards are stamped I for Munich which if correctly made in Nickel, belong to an early M33
• Handle ooks good but who really knows with all the other issues
• In summary this is an SS Dagger with pre-1936 Crossguards, a 1936 Blade and a 1938+ RZM Scabbard

[akriener]

And then another fellow chimed in that you two would have spoken up if you felt there were major concerns. From his experience he said that if you look at at the back there are 4 marks that are near the centre line of the blade and the blade profile looks like a professionally rohm removal. And that "It would be so easy to tell with this in hand but I am inclined to think it is an inscription removed not a officers." Also according to him Herders had their inscriptions closer to the centre line than other makers which could easily leave the 4 spots.

This auction is tomorrow and I am not quite at a comfort level with this one yet.

[Billy G]

The grip looks like a Herder product to me and the motto does not appear to be that of the typical M36 dagger so I think whomever said that it was a complete parts piece is probably not a dagger guy.

I do think the scabbard was paired with the dagger post-1945 so it's not worth what an unmolested M33 would bring but it still has value. What that value is would be up to the individual. If this would be your first SS dagger, you're probably better off leaving it for a more complete example.

[akriener]

The grip looks like a Herder product to me and the motto does not appear to be that of the typical M36 dagger so I think whomever said that it was a complete parts piece is probably not a dagger guy.

I do think the scabbard was paired with the dagger post-1945 so it's not worth what an unmolested M33 would bring but it still has value. What that value is would be up to the individual. If this would be your first SS dagger, you're probably better off leaving it for a more complete example.

That individual would probably beg to differ that they have some expertise. They have a very nice and respectable SS collection, very minty among other items.

That being said - The individual who stated "if you look at at the back there are 4 marks that are near the centre line of the blade and the blade profile looks like a professionally rohm removal. And that "It would be so easy to tell with this in hand but I am inclined to think it is an inscription removed not a officers. Herders had their inscriptions closer to the centre line than other makers which could easily leave the 4 spots." said that as an entry level dagger it's not perfect BUT could be a good value piece for the right price. He said $1,500 or under would be a good buy. He's been collecting over 30 years and said he'd have it in high collection.

I understand these come at a premium but I can't justify spending 3, 4, 5 thousand on one at this time or in the near future. Not for a case of can't, but those numbers are hard to swallow. So if I could get it for $1,500 or less and find an appropriate scabbard later that's something I can live with.

They just made me feel very unconfident about this one with their analysis of it. But it seems many other are in agreement that it is "fine".

[BobI]

A member of this forum on another forum was of the opinion that:

• They are firm that it is a parts dagger
• An M33 Dagger should have a Makers Mark on the reverse side of the blade. The Seller is claiming “must be because it’s a ground Röhm” . . . that’s just complete and utter fabrication to explain the blade missing a very important feature
• Believe the Blade is from an M36 Dagger, which normally featured a Chained Scabbard. This Scabbard is definitely from an RZM Dagger
• Crossguards are stamped I for Munich which if correctly made in Nickel, belong to an early M33
• Handle ooks good but who really knows with all the other issues
• In summary this is an SS Dagger with pre-1936 Crossguards, a 1936 Blade and a 1938+ RZM Scabbard

Billy and JR are right, the other person is right about the scabbard being a miss match but wrong about everything else. I would not want to pay a fortune without a proper scabbard but otherwise is a cool dagger. I would buy it to keep if the price was within reason, I would pay 1500 and maybe more depending on my mood at the time. The extra markings are rarely seen and just plain cool! Bob

[Billy G]

Bob, with the premium (ridiculous at 28%), it sold for $2560.