Unplated hilt fireman bayonet - distrib. Marked blade

[inimicus]

this is for me a mystery item.

it's the same hiltwise as a regular police bayo I think I discussed here some years back, i.e., hilt and guard are a sort of matte gray metal, obviously never plated. but here the grip shows no sign of having an insignia, let alone the pol. eagle the earlier one had. and tho I dont recall the maker name if any on that one, this fireman bayo bears no maker but the distributor mark of 'J.H.W.-E' . john angolia in his 1971 'bender book' guesses the gray hilt police model (again, with eagle as my former one had) is for
'senior subordinates of the feuerschutzpolizei.' the one he shows has a sawback and false edge; this one's is a std. nickeled long dress bayo blade.

billy g., fred or other wonk come in please! thanks for all insignts. I'm sure jack's book is dated in many areas by now...

[Billy G]

David

J.H.W.-E is a rarely seen mark that I've observed only on fire bayonets. My suspicion is that you're right in saying it's a distributor of such items. Although I have tried many times, I've never been able to decipher what the initials signify.

i would not say this has any resemblance to a police bayonet which brings to mind the bird shaped pommel with detailed feathering, leather scabbards and grip emblems. It's really in the style of the standard KS98 with a solid pommel and modified crossguard. I believe all other aspects, blade, grip plates, scabbard, would be identical.

The Feuerlöschpolizei bayonet you reference is a rarely seen variant that more resembles a KS98 but sometimes has a sawback blade (unlike typical KS98s) and also has a copper grip emblem.

[inimicus]

thanks a lot, billy. so, best guess as to which models were purposely made with this unplated hilt - and why? or are they just mistakes that busy inspectors / distributors wrongly OK'd?

[Billy G]

Which bayonet are you referring to, the J.H.W-E or the Feuerloschpolizei KS98 style with grip emblem? Early fire bayonets had solid hilts but the later ones were plated with the quality ranging from excellent to poor, depending on period of production as well as individual manufacturer. Some manufacturers typically used thin or poor plating, even prewar.

Models that were sold unplated are fairly uncommon and would likely be late period production. The Feuerloschpolizei you referenced was definitely a late produced piece. Every example I've seen on this model had an unplated hilt, was either WKC marked or unmarked and had a short blade either plain or sawback There are those that don't believe this model was period but there are enough of them, all matching the above details, to be more than coincidence.

[Billy G]

I realize you're mentioning the J.H.W-E as being unplated, I don't think it is unplated. Probably very late produced with poor original plating that came off in time, perhaps helped by someone's polishing. I've had wartime produced fire bayonets that had similar hilts,

[Frogprince]

Of the same general opinion as Billy who has more experience with them, the quality of nickel plating saw a rapid decline especially with later production from Solingen. Something that was not helped with a corresponding decline in the quality of the zinc that was supplied to Solingen makers. And that is before taking into account some individuals who polished the zinc to (temporally) brighten it. With (speaking generally) some of the most obvious examples being some of the fake zinc based "SS" sabers not that it necessarily applies here. FP

[inimicus]

thanks a lot to you estimable gentlemen.

so, we're 'talking about three cases: the 'J.H.W.-E', the 'Feuerlosch,' and the 'KS98 style dress bayo-with-police-grip emblem' I used to own. safe, then, to conclude plateless hilts weren't made to distinguish them in police or fire depts. in some way from others, i.e., purposely, by regulation; but instead, were just a late-war cost-saving measure at some factories, or the result of thin plating falling away thru time or being overpolished?

does anyone know what geo. wheeler says about unplated / once-plated bayonets? I don't have his book. hey billy, I'm at least glad the distributor mark is uncommon, otw it would seem this piece has 'zilch' vaue. doesn't even have a scabbard! plus, there's old, tenacious postwar lacquer on the blade. will turpentine or nail polish take it off?

[Frogprince]

............................... does anyone know what geo. wheeler says about unplated / once-plated bayonets? I don't have his book. hey billy, I'm at least glad the distributor mark is uncommon, otw it would seem this piece has 'zilch' vaue. doesn't even have a scabbard! plus, there's old, tenacious postwar lacquer on the blade. will turpentine or nail polish take it off?

David, On some occasions George (Wheeler) and myself discussed some of the items in his book, but unfortunately the Feuerweher were not a topic that was one of them. In his book what he says about the late Feuerweher -Seiten-gewehre is that some of them will have carved wood grips instead of staghorn. And they will be poorly finished and might even have pressed paper frogs. He also speculated that it’s possible that some might have been assembled PW from parts, but did not elaborate other than to say that genuine staghorn on later dress sidearms was highly suspect (and doesn’t apply here). PS: As for the old lacquer - why not use some lacquer thinner on a cotton swab keeping it away from the grip plates and see what happens? Fred

[Billy G]

David,

Here is a shot of my example of the bayonet in question. I have better pictures somewhere but can't find them at the moment. As you can see, the hilt has the matte sort of finish we were discussing. Not a trace of plating can be found on it. IN close to 20 years of collecting fire bayonets, I have yet to find an example, other than the above variation, that had never been plated. The examples I had in my collection that had near no plating once had it but through time and perhaps polishing, had lost that thin plating.

George Wheeler discusses the grip emblem bayonet in his excellent book "Seitengewehr: History of the German Bayonet 1919-1945" on page 121. There is a picture shown at the top which appears identical to mine, unplated hilt, copper grip emblem, obverse ricasso marked by WKC on a sawback blade. If I can quote George, "Fire-police KS 98 with grip insignia. This short model KS 98 was manufactured by WKC for Feuerschutzpolizei officers and senior NCOs. The plated sawback blade is 20cm long and has a narrow fuller., which the white metal hilt is unplated. The copper police eagle is properly attached to the obverse black plastic grip plate by two pins. These bayonets were manufactured woth both sawback and plain blades, but all have police insignia attached to the grip with two pins."

[Billy G]

Sawback blade with obverse maker mark.


Regarding the old lacquer, I recently helped someone by taking some off an M36 NSKK chain. Turpentine was not sufficient so I had to resort to paint remover which was stronger and needed more care in using. I would start with mineral spirits to see how that does first and work your way up to stronger solvents as needed.

[inimicus]

thanks loads, billy and others. most interesting, for sure!