Medical Officer Daggers

[Mian_Tang]

I recently detected that a huge quantities of the medical officer dress dagger(if it's the correct title) have been sold on online auctions,although by different sellers,I doubt that how could this group of daggers appear at same time?

I also wish to learn about the history of this type of dagger from our senior collectors in the fourm.

[Skipper Greenwade]

I don't follow the on-line auctions, but can offer some information on the background of the Red Cross and Social Welfare Leader pattern daggers, courtesy of the "bible" of the hobby - Tom Johnson's Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich, Volume I:

The dagger was introduced in 1938 and was authorized for wear by all officials who held the rank of Wachtfuhrer (officer or non-commissioned officer in charge of a guard) or higher.

There were two distinct hangers for the dagger one for Red Cross and one for Social Welfare. Conventional belief is that the daggers with rectangular holes in the scabbards' hanger mounts are for the Red Cross and the ones with round holes are for the Social Welfare. While personally not buying the theory ( I think it's just a manufacturer's variation, but since the daggers are not maker marked we can't effectively tie one type to a particular manufacturer) I do own one of each type and have the hangers paired up with them as described.

Hope that's what you were looking for,
Skip

[Mian_Tang]

[Thank you for the informations,sir.Sure it does help me a lot.

[nellyp51]

Any photos of one guys

[Craig Gottlieb]

Here's the Red Cross (used to be in my collection). Notice the square holes on the scabbard bands.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Here's the social welfare (again, from my collection). Notice the round holes. This is the only difference between the two models. I personally do not believe there was a distinct model entitled "Red Cross" and "Social Welfare." This differentiation came about as people noticed that when the square-holed daggers came out of the woodwork, they came out with Red Cross hangers, and when the round-holed daggers came out, they tended to come out with Social Welfare hangers. I attribute this pattern not to a particular dagger type, but to a supply-differentiation. That is, wherever (or whenever) the social welfare people source their daggers, they happened to come with round holes.

[Mian_Tang]

It's truely a beauty!!!

And they looks much different from what have seem on those appear on the aucions.

[Ron Weinand]

Social Welfare and Red Cross Leaders

While I tend to believe that this designation is not official, ALL of these daggers that I have found directly from WW2 veterans in motel buys that had hangers attached DID follow this unstated rule. I have NEVER found a round hole scabbard dagger with Red Cross Hangers and NEVER found a rectantular holed scabbard with Social Welfare Hangers.
As I have found over 100 of these daggers directly from motel buys and veterans, I would tend to believe that which ever manufacturer used the different scabbards must have had a contract with the different organizations for supply that lends to this assignment of scabbard type.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

[Craig Gottlieb]

Ron - glad your observations match my idea as presented above, and that you ascribe to the idea as do I. I just don't believe that something as small as a round or square hole would have been a major design differentiation. Besides, there is no literature I know of where the dagger is differentiated by hole-shape. As a matter of curiosity, do you recall, Ron, which catalogs show the RC/SW dagger? I will look through my catalog collection when I get into the office.

[Ron Weinand]

Drk

I don't recall any catalogs that list these. This would lend proof to the idea that these were a contract piece and not available to the public.
I think only a couple of manufacturers made this dagger: P.D. Luneschloss, Klaas and maybe one other. I know the pommel and crossguard are rare parts, so not too many factorys involved in the making of this model.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

[DON_S]

Along this same line of thought, I have always felt that the direction the eagle faces on GO and Diplomatic crossguards was also a very minor difference and could be attributed to a production variation or manufacturers preference. Hard to believe that such a small detail would identify seperate branches of the party. Would like to hear the opinions of Ron and Craig on this subject.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Ron : Have you noticed any pattern or way to identify the various maker of the round-hole or the square-hole variation? It'd be a curious discovery to pin the difference to an actual verifiable maker.

[nellyp51]

Both very nice indeed Craig.

Have you found my Luftwaffe medal bar yet.