Wasserschutzpolizei

[Billy G]

Nice one Bob!

[JoeW]

The regulation prescribed Marine dolch with blue handle, peculiar (Kugel form) pommel cap and police insignia. Nothing else. NCOs wore the shortened (from Prussian length) police bayonets. Very nice photos above. I have a series of a visit to a WSP site in Vienna by a senior WSP officer who was wearing a standard KM dagger. And all WSP officers wore what appears to be standard KM hangers in the photos.

[Frogprince]

The regulation prescribed Marine dolch with blue handle, peculiar (Kugel form) pommel cap and police insignia. Nothing else. NCOs wore the shortened (from Prussian length) police bayonets. Very nice photos above. I have a series of a visit to a WSP site in Vienna by a senior WSP officer who was wearing a standard KM dagger. And all WSP officers wore what appears to be standard KM hangers in the photos.

Excellent information it clarifies what might be a somewhat confusing sense of where to categorize these daggers. My understanding being that it was not until 1937 that an agreement was reached between the RFSS and the RVM for the absorption of specialized water related security forces. But not always that clear because of the overlapping of areas of responsibility between the Wasserschutzpolizei and the Marine-Küstenpolizei. The MKP later on apparently able to draw personnel from the WSP pursuant to an agreement between the RFSS and the OKM. The NSKK also having a role as auxiliaries to the WSP, with the larger ports having other additional auxiliaries. FP

[thebig]

Here is what you want to see on an Eickhorn,
Bob

Hi Bob.
That’s s what I was talking about. The crossguard and the scabbard are typical for an early Eickhorn, an Eickhorn M1929 for example.
Best,
Oleg.

______________________
www.kriegsmarinedolch.de

[BobI]

Nice, I love that portape it gives it great character!
Bob

[collecting]

Hello Gentlemen,
as far as I know the parts of the WSP daggers were the same as the parts of the KM daggers. The exception, of course, were the handle and pommel. All of the WSP daggers I've seen have been by Alcoso and Eickhorn. I mean the daggers from 100% safe sources like an owner’s family etc. Here are a few pictures of the WSP daggers as they were worn.
Best,
Oleg.

_____________________
www.kriegsmarinedolch.de

Great photos!

Personally I see no reason why there should be any differences when it comes to scabbard and fittings compared to KM daggers. The 2nd pattern police eagle on the grips was introduced in 1936.
We see strange things on navy daggers until the late 1920’s, but not in 1936 or later on.

[Billy G]

There is a wide disparity concerning the grip emblems on these pieces. For that reason, I don't think there are WPP daggers we can categorize as "textbook" because of this disparity. There are, however, patterns that we can quantify to determine fairly well whether a specific emblem is typical or atypical for a certain dagger and a certain vintage.

Very little is in print about these daggers, other than the chapter in Johnson's Collecting series, Volume V. Additionally, at least one of the examples shown by Johnson (and some other authors) is likely a postwar Frankenstein.

As has been said to me numerous times, there are probably 4 or 5 fake WPP daggers out there for every period one.

[Frogprince]

There is a wide disparity concerning the grip emblems on these pieces. For that reason, I don't think there are WPP daggers we can categorize as "textbook" because of this disparity. There are, however, patterns that we can quantify to determine fairly well whether a specific emblem is typical or atypical for a certain dagger and a certain vintage.

Very little is in print about these daggers, other than the chapter in Johnson's Collecting series, Volume V. Additionally, at least one of the examples shown by Johnson (and some other authors) is likely a postwar Frankenstein.

As has been said to me numerous times, there are probably 4 or 5 fake WPP daggers out there for every period one.

A fair assessment I think, there is no argument from me. Given the timing, I'm also wondering why there doesn't seem to be a percentage of them made using the substitute materials that were being used for the more ordinary conventional daggers? FP

[BobI]

Fred,
What type of materials are you thinking of?
Bob

[Frogprince]

Fred,
What type of materials are you thinking of?
Bob

Bob, For starters how about those like seen on later period Navy daggers? The WSP started out with "X" number of personnel. As time went on did it shrink or expand? Fred

[BobI]

Hi Fred!
I was curious because about 30 years ago I did see an Alcoso with a hard grip and the emblem on the grip. I may have seen a second one also at a show years ago. I always wondered if they were real, from what I remember I would say "maybe".
Thanks,
Bob

[Billy G]

Johnson shows a Höller WPP in his coffee table book series with celluloid grip. Was it period? Maybe. Would people be rightly suspicious of it? Absolutely.

[BobI]

Johnson shows a Höller WPP in his coffee table book series with celluloid grip. Was it period? Maybe. Would people be rightly suspicious of it? Absolutely.

So much so that I did not pick up either one, I should have but..... that was long ago. The hobby was not as technical back then as it is now.
Bob

[Serge M.]

Question is why so many more old fakes around today than originals that seem even today to be hard to tell between 'period' and a 'fake/humper'?

The fact that outside of two parts, basically one (the grip), the WPP dagger was identical in parts and construction to a Naval dagger.

So back in the day (say 1978) one can buy a cheap regular 1938 Mod. Naval dagger, swap out the grip to a blue leather over wood grip, twist a couple of strands of
avaliable grip wire, screw on a easy to cast brass 'Ball Pommel', add a little fake patina to flow with the assembled parts, and Wa-La !
You got yourself 2X+ the value as a scarce Water Protection Police dagger.
That's for the plane grip version.

Now everyone back then, as today, wanted the version with the 'cool grip emblem' as that vesion was selling for double the plain grip one. No problem. cast a aluminum emblem, paint it, age it, then stick it to the grip.
Now you got The One WPP dagger that's a must in every dagger collection.

Prices were well known by the late 1970's as they were also advertised in the TJM book series. Image courtesy of TJM:

[JoeW]

I wonder where the WSP dagger w/out grip insignia originated? Was there a photo and thus it was established? The first mention of the WSP dagger in 1938 clearly specifies police insignia on the grip.

And, I believe Mollo was the first to identify the use of Marine dolch hangers for use by the WSP, as shown below from his 1967 book of daggers of the Third Reich. And in his usual precise writing style, he provided source documentation for his description.

Does someone have this copy of Uniform-Markt? Please excuse the curve in the dagger as the page I photographed was bending.