Army General's Dagger

[Ron Weinand]

Over my many years in this hobby, I have seen a handful of mid-war Army Daggers that are claimed to be issue General's Daggers. Her is one that came out of the woodwork in 2011 and resides in my personal collection today. As with Naval badges with a faded gold grey finish, so are the fittings on this Army, The color is distinct. Also there is just enough gold remaining on parts to confirm the General designation. Herder made, I saw another Herder at one of the SOS a couple of years ago.

[tanker]

Ron
What would cause the excessive gold loss or graying? Would it be over cleaning at some point?
Ron

[BobI]

Cool Ron!
I like what I see but I know many guys will probably have a problem with it. I like the color and just like KM badges. With this late war crap metal and the finish used, they do not hold up well over time. I like how some protected areas still have a trace.
Bob

[Ron Weinand]

Tanker, no cleaning on this dagger as it came directly to me out of the veteran's hands. The reason for gold loss is the same as the Navy Badges of the mid-war period. The zinc based metal destroys the gold and leaves that light grey paste look to the surface. You can really see this on the wreaths of period naval badges.

[Serge M.]

Tanker, no cleaning on this dagger as it came directly to me out of the veteran's hands. The reason for gold loss is the same as the Navy Badges of the mid-war period. The zinc based metal destroys the gold and leaves that light grey paste look to the surface. You can really see this on the wreaths of period naval badges.

Ron, It seems that the earliest gold gilded Army daggers I found were in about the 1940 period. Would you concur with that ?
A few of these early examples (1940) held their gold wash better where the dagger wasn't zinc based. I believe I seen one that was original like that.

Nice dagger.

-Serge

[Ron Weinand]

Serge
I think that who manufactured the dagger made the difference in how the gold held up. I can't recall seeing a General's dagger made by one of the large manufactures. I recall seeing a Puma and another Herder at one of the SOS. I don't think the demand was too strong during the war. JMO. I feel that most collectors wouldn't know if one of the faded daggers crossed their hands. They just wouldn't catch the difference, especially if it was worn.

[Ron Weinand]

If you carefully look at the bottom edge of the crossguard in the closeup photo of the backside of my dagger, you can see where the gilded wash has worn away leaving a distinct line of grey finish. The gilding wasn't too thick.

[Frogprince]

Not just Army daggers, I've seen Luftwaffe Officer daggers that were supposed to be for General Officer's. Regulations specifying that General Officer's were to wear gold color equipped (fittings) hangers with conventional daggers. As always, if somebody has period documentation that supersedes that information it would be very much appreciated if it can be posted. The two images here - with one showing a worn set of hangers, I think that it can be seen in places where the gray phosphate final finish was worn down exposing a metallic gold colored zinc chromate. That is worn down further exposing the zinc base metal. The other a Luftwaffe scabbard that still has lot of yellow zinc chromate on it, and in the recesses the gray finish that was on top of it. FP

[Ron Weinand]

Frogprinz in the case of the scabbard you show, this is not the type of "gold" you see on the Army daggers. It is the brass wash for the Zn coat on the Lufts As to the hangers, I have seen bright gold sets, but never owned one, so can't say.

[BobI]

I have seen a lot of hangers that oxidize to a goldfish color. I did have one pair of generals hangers that were very distinct in color. More cool stuff!! Like you and Serge, I like "different" these days!
Bob

[Frogprince]

Frogprinz in the case of the scabbard you show, this is not the type of "gold" you see on the Army daggers. It is the brass wash for the Zn coat on the Lufts As to the hangers, I have seen bright gold sets, but never owned one, so can't say.

Ron, It's not gold which for color is fairly consistent depending on the alloy. The zinc chromate in color (that can also age/tarnish) can vary quite a bit depending on the company and the formulation it uses, and with different batches. Also it was used by some major makers like WKC and Eickhorn (etc.) for corrosion control, but I will have to verify and see who else can also be added. Attached a couple of current production commercial examples. Fred

[tanker]

Thanks Ron
of the mid-war period. The zinc based metal destroys the gold and leaves that light grey paste look to the surface. You can really see this on the wreaths of period naval badges.[/QUOTE]

[Frogprince]

Thanks Ron
of the mid-war period. The zinc based metal destroys the gold and leaves that light grey paste look to the surface. You can really see this on the wreaths of period naval badges.

Major segments of German industry used the Guild systems for (among other reasons) passing on expertise to new and other workers. The production of zinc an area where the loss of experienced workers to the Wehrmacht caused a dramatic reduction in the quality of zinc. That being a metal where it needs high quality if it's expected to last. Years ago, I remember handling a late Luftwaffe dagger with a pommel that looked and felt weak as if it would crumble if I squeezed it too hard. I gently put it down (and started looking a lot more at the earlier types if I was thinking of making an addition to my collection). FP

[The Red Baron]

Nice piece Ron. Lovely.

The goldish color on luft daggers, hangers, etc. is NOT what we are seeing here.

[Frogprince]

As I stated earlier it's not actually gold and the color can vary quite a bit. Posted is a piece of hardware that I think is probably a closer color match. FP