DAK Offizier Feldmutze: Was Gibt im Hier???

[Schrage Musik]

It is quite possible that Lux have made two mistakes;

1/ They should have stated what they did to the cap in their sales description. That is always the right thing to do and can come back to bite if they do not, which it has in this case.

2/ They should have posted the cap here on WAF, War Relics or Afrikakorps forum and checked how collectors reacted to the soutache being on the cap and if removing it was a good idea.

If it was a WW2 period changed over soutache then it would be sad in more ways than one if they had not realised that happened in Afrika a lot by 1942,

Chris

Right on, Chris! It is indeed a shame as this appears to be really cool cap that now is badly tarnished due to, at best, poor judgment.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Interesting transformation of soutaches over the years. The dealer could not have known of the rosa piping as it was concealed by the green soutache presumably. There are many possible explanations. The fact that the dealer removed the photo is telling. Clearly the cap has been messed with and the seller wants to conceal this fact.

This dealer is expensive and sells original items that have been post war upgraded such as this cap. For example there was a tropical EM rosa piped pair, that the "bone" appearance had been done recently with bleaching. Also a set of tropical signals straps with the same effect that have been returned at least once.

The cap has been for sale for some time yet not picked up by anyone. Unusual for any "bone" DAK item not to sell quickly unless overpriced...

too bad as it was a nice piece

[BenVK]

A thought occurred to me that the LUX cap might be the same one that I missed out on back in 2016 but it is not.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=843894

It's interesting to note that it had a green soutache removed and also that the stitching broke along the seam between cap body and visor.

Then look at the LUX cap and note the extra/additional stitching along the same seam. Period repairs or post war monkey business?

[compressore]

Why it is green here ?

[mathluft]

Hello Everyone,

The cap in question is a consignment piece and purchased in the US many years ago. It was initially pipped in green. We took photos of the cap and the description was made based on the first photos. After closer examination as we do with all our items we realized that the soutache was applied post war. Very loosely and incorrectly stitched.

Consignor was contacted and situation was discussed. We concluded that the removal of the post war applied soutache would be the best option. More photos were taken after the removal and attached to our listing. The description was hastily edited and the item was put up for sale.

An honest mistake on our part and we apologize for the inconvenience. The item will remain available for purchase with a corrected description shortly.

Mathieu

[90th Light]

Hello Everyone,

The cap in question is a consignment piece and purchased in the US many years ago. It was initially pipped in green. We took photos of the cap and the description was made based on the first photos. After closer examination as we do with all our items we realized that the soutache was applied post war. Very loosely and incorrectly stitched.

Consignor was contacted and situation was discussed. We concluded that the removal of the post war applied soutache would be the best option. More photos were taken after the removal and attached to our listing. The description was hastily edited and the item was put up for sale.

An honest mistake on our part and we apologize for the inconvenience. The item will remain available for purchase with a corrected description shortly.

Mathieu

I would have left the Panzer Grenadier soutache on the cap and said that in our opinion/ experience/ knowledge the soutache has been post war re-sewn to the cap. The price we are asking reflects this.

At the end of the day there is no way to be certain when a re-sewn soutache was applied unless you have done it yourself. I have a cap where they have changed the soutache at the factory. I know this because there is another exact same cap with the exact same soutache by that maker which is factory sewn original to the cap. We can but assume, the factory changed the soutache on some caps to complete a specific order.

In other cases the German quarter masters changed the soutache as needed and of course soldiers in the field did it at the time

But lead us not into temptation. How many have been re-added to caps since the war ended especially for desirable branches of service like Panzer, Pz. Grenadiers, Pioneer ?

Leaving reasonable bits of soutache at the bottom by the bill when a post war soutache is removed is a nice touch too. That possibility crossed my mind with the tropical officer Pioneer M40 that Helmut Weitze sold last year. It could have been a 100% original cap with removed soutache but how would you know for sure. Hence be careful what you pay for such a cap,

Chris

[Schrage Musik]

Hello Everyone,

The cap in question is a consignment piece and purchased in the US many years ago. It was initially pipped in green. We took photos of the cap and the description was made based on the first photos. After closer examination as we do with all our items we realized that the soutache was applied post war. Very loosely and incorrectly stitched.

Consignor was contacted and situation was discussed. We concluded that the removal of the post war applied soutache would be the best option. More photos were taken after the removal and attached to our listing. The description was hastily edited and the item was put up for sale.

An honest mistake on our part and we apologize for the inconvenience. The item will remain available for purchase with a corrected description shortly.

Mathieu

Thank you for the update, Mathieu, and for posting here!

I'm still a bit confused, though, so please help me out. You said that the description was based on the first photos, which would have had the green soutache, yet the description clearly states that the soutache was removed as per the 1942 directive, so how is that all possible? Do you mean you removed it following the 1942 directive??? And why would your description not match the original photos, which should state that it has a green soutache in place? If the description was based on the original photos, then it should state that there is an original green soutache in place, right???

You also state that a closer examination was made, as you do with all items, but why do you not make a closer examination from the outset, especially with such a rare item as this? Are you not putting all of your items under "closer examination" before buying or accepting for consignment?

Do you still have the photos of the "incorrectly" and "loosely" applied soutache that you can share here? In the only photo we can see, though just a fraction of the soutache is visible, it sure does not appear to be loosely applied and looks pretty convincing to my eyes. You mean you did not notice the incorrect, loose application of the soutache when you accepted the cap for consignment and when you performed your usual superb photography?

I'm trying to help get this all cleared up, especially since I am the one who brought this item to the forum's attention and because I like dealing with you a great deal. Thank you for helping us all understand what is going on with this cap and being transparent.

[Schrage Musik]

Interesting transformation of soutaches over the years. The dealer could not have known of the rosa piping as it was concealed by the green soutache presumably. There are many possible explanations. The fact that the dealer removed the photo is telling. Clearly the cap has been messed with and the seller wants to conceal this fact.

This dealer is expensive and sells original items that have been post war upgraded such as this cap. For example there was a tropical EM rosa piped pair, that the "bone" appearance had been done recently with bleaching. Also a set of tropical signals straps with the same effect that have been returned at least once.

The cap has been for sale for some time yet not picked up by anyone. Unusual for any "bone" DAK item not to sell quickly unless overpriced...

too bad as it was a nice piece

Tim, are you thinking or suggesting that this cap was postwar bleached? They state in the listing that it was artificially bleached, but how does one tell when it was done???

[RGD51]

Before passing judgement it would be interesting to hear the Lux side of the story.

When it comes to re-sewn soutaches on German tropical caps, one has to tread carefully for two reasons;

1/ Yes some collectors, dealers and other reasoned individuals have replaced or added a soutache post-war for a variety of reasons


2/ By 1942 in Afrika, the German forces were so short of caps they took original soutaches off caps and replaced them with another soutache. The reason was the chronic shortage of caps in certain sizes and transfers between branches of service. This is one of the reasons for the orders to remove the soutaches in 1942 and to stop producing caps with soutaches. It was creating an additional unneeded bottleneck to an already seriously challenge supply problem.


When I come across a tropical cap with a re-sewn soutache, I leave it in place just in case. However, I will not pay any more for it than what a tropical M40 cap with a totally removed soutache sells for. That is all it is worth and no more.

The cap on the Lux site looks to have been a Panzer officer cap turned into a Panzer Grenadier officer cap. That is quite possible to have happened during the war. But equally possible that someone did it after the war. How does one know for sure ?

The unfaded area where the soutache has been, shows clearly that this cap had a soutache for a long time as it faded from being exposed to the elements and honest use. I saw an officer example like this with a cut-off black Pioneer soutache, sell last year for Euro 4500 on Helmut Weitze's site. The Weitze Pioneer cap was not faded to the desirable bone white that this one is. Thus the price being asked is not cheap and in line with what an expensive European dealer asks for such a cap these days,

Chris

That really is the horrible, more salt in the wound irony with this piece. What if that pz gren soutache was legit on there and was that way as found when souvenired. Maybe the consignor could have elaborated on that or at least confirmed it was like that when he bought it. It is indeed a tangled web of intrigue out there boys.

Robt.

[BenVK]

We've only got ourselves to blame if you ask me.

If collectors didn't place such importance on soutache, the prices of caps that have them wouldn't be as astronomical as they are and therefore the temptation to tamper with them wouldn't be such a problem.

It's just a coloured piece of ribbon for goodness sake.

[90th Light]

We've only got ourselves to blame if you ask me.

If collectors didn't place such importance on soutache, the prices of caps that have them wouldn't be as astronomical as they are and therefore the temptation to tamper with them wouldn't be such a problem.

It's just a coloured piece of ribbon for goodness sake.

billbert summed it up perfectly on another thread,

"the most expensive piece of ribbon known to man"

Chris

[RGD51]

We've only got ourselves to blame if you ask me.

If collectors didn't place such importance on soutache, the prices of caps that have them wouldn't be as astronomical as they are and therefore the temptation to tamper with them wouldn't be such a problem.

It's just a coloured piece of ribbon for goodness sake.

Yep, youve got duplicitous slimeballs like Regimentals out there restoring soutache to DAK caps and not being forthright about it.

Robt.

[Schrage Musik]

We've only got ourselves to blame if you ask me.

If collectors didn't place such importance on soutache, the prices of caps that have them wouldn't be as astronomical as they are and therefore the temptation to tamper with them wouldn't be such a problem.

It's just a coloured piece of ribbon for goodness sake.

Collectors are people and people want what is rare, distinctive, and sexy, no different than with anything else in life or in any other genre or area of collecting collectibles, so it's collector desire that drives the fraudulent to target select items in select ways. Following your logic, if collectors did not collect then the entire cap would be just an old rag, right? If yes, then I'd agree. Placing importance on something is assigning value, so if not for collectors assigning value to an item the item would be worth its relevant usefulness and utility and that is all. But are you blaming collectors for the nefarious acts of fraud perpetrated by criminals???

[90th Light]

Collectors are people and people want what is rare, distinctive, and sexy, no different than with anything else in life or in any other genre or area of collecting collectibles, so it's collector desire that drives the fraudulent to target select items in select ways. Following your logic, if collectors did not collect then the entire cap would be just an old rag, right? If yes, then I'd agree. Placing importance on something is assigning value, so if not for collectors assigning value to an item the item would be worth its relevant usefulness and utility and that is all. But are you blaming collectors for the nefarious acts of fraud perpetrated by criminals???

I can see what Ben is saying,

demand drives prices. Price is the signal of what collectors are willing (able ?) to pay. Thus dealers set out to offer (create ?) items that collectors will pay the high prices for to satisfy that demand. It is a feedback mechanism the feeds upon itself.

The problem with German tropical M40 caps with soutache is that they have reached the point of elasticity of demand where there are collectors who want them but can not justify spending that much money. And of the collectors who can spend that much, do they want that particular M40 with that particular soutache. All markets reach this point if price continues to inflate.

The question I am asking myself is if the officer M40 cap which you started this thread about, might have been sold by now had the soutache been left intact and clearly declared suspect/ resewn. The challenge with a soutache removed cap is that you limit the period for display to late August/ September 1942 and after. If the soutache is on the cap then you widen the market to include collectors who want a lower priced cap for a 1941/ early 1942 display or are happy with a reapplied soutache, nice looking, bone white officer M40 at Euro 5000 rather than Euro 10,000+. The buyer then has the option to remove the soutache if that is their choice ?

By removing the soutache, they have reduced the number of possible segments of the market who might buy which now adds to the challenges of selling this one,

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

Tim, are you thinking or suggesting that this cap was postwar bleached? They state in the listing that it was artificially bleached, but how does one tell when it was done???

Agree the cap has been chemically bleached. & as you say...

Would also add that the expensive green material in the one photo does not appear to be "Very loosely and incorrectly stitched."


There are a few soutached M40's for sale around $5-6k at the moment and non soutached caps even bleached ones sell for much less.
So Chris makes a good point.