LW tropical cap - old movie prop ?

[OSS]

A '41 date would be a red flag.

[Tim O'Keefe]

A '41 date would be a red flag.

Both the LW & Herr cap are dated 1941.

[Fsoq]

I will not tell anything about the originality of the cap itself because I'm far to be an expert and some collectors who know their tropical stuff have already expressed their opinion.
But I feel very strange that so much M43 and especially SS M43 got so much only because the color of the bias, the material used to make loops compared to the material used for lining, the aspect and weave of the Hbt, .....but nobody is bothered by the eagle, the lack of wear on the front and the mold stains.
I mean would the germans accept such an eagle looking on the left side ? And the mold stains are IMO typical from a fake cap left few days outside to give an "older" aspect.
2 different levels of analyse I think...

[RGD51]

A '41 date would be a red flag.

Why? Troops on their way to Africa in ‘41 could have purchased an Italian made fieldcap, Rome, Naples. I would certainly agree the cap warrants a healthy measure of scrutiny. The Italian bogus militaria monkey’s have their fingers in alot of pies.

Robt.

[Tim O'Keefe]

There was no large shortage of caps
/cloth in Afrika till 1942. Little odd both are dated 1941 imo.

[OSS]

Why? Troops on their way to Africa in ‘41 could have purchased an Italian made fieldcap, Rome, Naples. I would certainly agree the cap warrants a healthy measure of scrutiny. The Italian bogus militaria monkey’s have their fingers in alot of pies.

Robt.

I am surprised that you would find this scenario plausible as enlisted personnel generally wore that which was issued. The Italian made (LW M-41) caps that I am familiar with were made after the German occupation of Italy (in 1943). At any rate, I don't like the Heer (Pz.) M-41 cap shown and am not totally comfortable with the LW example.

[RGD51]

Whether enroute to Afrika or otherwise I see it as being ‘feasible’ that a German soldier could acquire an M40 style cap made in Italy. I think its even mentioned in McGuirks book that the harsh desert conditions subjected the caps to wear and tear, shrinkage and caps that were issued no longer fit and sent soldiers looking for replacements to wear sometimes with incorrect branch soutache. With the southern front in mind, Italy had become a marshalling area for the Germans for some time and the locals provided military goods for them hence the inkstamps on items that read Economato Municipio d’Napoli or Roma for example. My 2cents on the issue.

Robt.

[John Hodgin]

I am surprised that you would find this scenario plausible as enlisted personnel generally wore that which was issued. The Italian made (LW M-41) caps that I am familiar with were made after the German occupation of Italy (in 1943). At any rate, I don't like the Heer (Pz.) M-41 cap shown and am not totally comfortable with the LW example.

This logic is sound and compelling, am not liking the date either.

[Willi Z.]

I didn't like this cap when I saw it last week, but decided not to comment then. The wrong flying direction poorly detailed eagle, the cockade, the piping, and the unnatural staining around the rim were big turn offs to me. The 1941 date just strengthens my opinion.

[RGD51]

I understand the concerns but feel we’ve lost the gist of the discussion. A Luft soldier that wanted a trop visor cap would have to have it made bespoke or get a Heer cap as there were no Luft issue caps. With the campaign getting underway in ‘41 why are there
concerns about a ‘41 dated, locally sourced piece? The differences in a locally produced cap should actually be validating....the cut, materials, would not be spot on duplicated just a close replication
thats why an eagle insig could be flying the wrong way. Period pix show countless variations.

Robt.

[OSS]

I understand the concerns but feel we’ve lost the gist of the discussion. A Luft soldier that wanted a trop visor cap would have to have it made bespoke or get a Heer cap as there were no Luft issue caps. With the campaign getting underway in ‘41 why are there
concerns about a ‘41 dated, locally sourced piece? The differences in a locally produced cap should actually be validating....the cut, materials, would not be spot on duplicated just a close replication
thats why an eagle insig could be flying the wrong way. Period pix show countless variations.

Robt.

I see your logic but feel it supposes that Italian makers anticipated a demand for German military headgear in the first months of the war and stamped them with the information mimicking German contract stamps (the date stamp seems particularly unlikely to me) and that German enlisted men had the disposable income to create a market for such things . I have never even heard of such caps existing, and I have spent far too much time looking at these (German tropical) field caps over the years.

[RGD51]

From p.134 of McGuirks Dak book “many of the privately purchased items used by officers were made by Italian tailors in Italy which explains why these pieces sometimes show a cloth type not seen in German-made uniforms, and in some instances display non standard insignia that was obviously made up by the tailors”.

Robt.

[OSS]

Yes, officers received a clothing allowance.

[RGD51]

The cap that begins this thread is a Luft officer with Italian stamp. I think by ‘41 the Italians were getting accustomed to Germans in their rather bepoke capital of a country.... a military hub and marshalling area for Germans bound elsewhere hence the feasibility of such a cap with that date. Since Giorgio has not participated in this thread I think I’ll do the same now....cheers!

Robt.

[OSS]

It is impossible to totally rule out a cap that is not even pretending to be an issue item. The odd piping and insignia is difficult to compare with anything known to be original. I suppose you have to go with your "gut" on items like this.