Another "unknown" manufacturer's name in M40 caps

[Lodsworth]

Here's another name I can't read — this time out of my caps of uncertain authenticity file. Both caps are without sweatbands, large sizes and have zigzag machine lock stitched eagles and straight lock stitched cockades. On the underside of the peaks of both, the two lines of stitching are quite widely spaced. The second had a soutache folded between the brow of the cap and the peak, the other I'm not sure about. The images I have of the caps are not great and I can't be sure from them that they're authentic. The first was on Weitze last year and the second was posted by Alphared6 on this forum, but the first link has gone as have Alpha's photos.
Mike

[Lodsworth]

This is the Weitze cap

[Lodsworth]

And this is Alphared's

[Glenn McInnes]

I believe the maker is "Franz Ritter & Sohn"










Glenn

[Lodsworth]

Thanks Glen, I thought that — because of the Franz — and I would be very happy if these do say Ritter but the KM Ritter's I've seen have a different place of manufacturer on them. These say Dresden; the KMs something like Dettlngen? (KM is not my field at all so I'm ready to be told this is rubbish, or that they were made in different places). Any view?
Cheers
Mike

[Glenn McInnes]

I would think some makers would have factories in several locations.













Glenn

[Tim O'Keefe]

Thanks Glen, I thought that — because of the Franz — and I would be very happy if these do say Ritter but the KM Ritter's I've seen have a different place of manufacturer on them. These say Dresden; the KMs something like Dettlngen? (KM is not my field at all so I'm ready to be told this is rubbish, or that they were made in different places). Any view?
Cheers
Mike

Hi Mike

Ritter bought out several smaller company's and added his name to the stamp. Zigzag machine stitched eagles and straight stitched cockades are the norm for this maker in it's Herr caps. This thread goes into some detail on this....

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=879489
&highlight=ritter

Clemens Wagner had two factory's, one in Hamburg and the larger one in Braunschweig so several makers had factory's in different locations as Glenn mentions.

cheers
Tim

[Lodsworth]

Hello Tim
Thanks for your comments.
I buy the link between Ritter and caps numbered 0-0678-5015 and I agree that some KM Ritters and some Heer 0-0678-5015s have the same insignia stitching as the caps I posted. I also acknowledge that there are at least two variants of the Heer 0-0678-5015 with different stamps and under peak stitching and that this could be explained by the existence of factories in different places, particularly if these formerly belong to different companies. But none of that necessarily makes the caps I posted Ritters too. They could be; there is circumstantial evidence that they are; but they needn't be. When I first read the Weitze stamp, for example, not knowing the name Ritter, my best guess was Piecher. And the stamp is unlike the KM Ritter stamps and the underpeak stitching is different from that of all the Ritters and all the 0-0678-5015s I've so far looked at online (about 15 on this forum and elsewhere, including 10 Heer 0-0678-5015s, if we include the one with the "daisy" eylets posted by Varsity).
What I would like to know therefore is, does anyone actually know the caps I posted, and are they actually OK? And has anyone seen a cap with the Dresden stamp, which is clearly readable?
Thanks
Mike

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hey Mike

Both caps are originals & have been discussed, and the cap posted by Varsity is as well a fine original though doubted by some initially...No problem on the Dresden stamp. Ritter bought up several smaller makers and included his name on the stamps is most cases.

cheers
Tim

[Lodsworth]

I'd still like to see a clearer example of this stamp, if anyone's got one.

As an aside, I just like to make a couple of comments on Varsity's "Ritter"/0-0678-5015 cap. The first is that the sweatband is made with brown leatherette, as opposed to tan, the colour on all the other 0-0678-5015s (of both variants) on my list. I also think we need to remember the riveting of the eyelets. Of course, some manufacturers' M40s have, or sometimes have, steel eyelets (Maysers, Ottmars etc.) but Varsity's is the only one I've seen on which they are riveted quite like this — a "daisy" with 6, as opposed to 8 petals. Not that I'm saying here that this cap is not OK. I don't know one way or another. But these features introduce an element of doubt that we should keep in mind.

That's enough me (33 posts), teaching granny (3520 posts) how to suck eggs — for the moment at least.
Mike

[Tim O'Keefe]

The number of post's doesn't mean seniority around here. But Mike i don't suck egg's from Anyone and Your granny comment is not worthy of someone of your repute.
Several advanced DAK collectors with years more experience than You & i were disappointed with the direction of that thread initially. However all's well that ends well as the cap is a fine original

[Lodsworth]

Tim
I fear the "granny" epression might not mean the same in the US as it does in the UK — or perhaps you don't have the expression at all? (As a child I was told "not to teach granny to suck eggs" when I was presuming to know better than my elders, presuming being the operative word). No offence was intended. That will teach me not to attempt to joke on an international forum!
Mea Culpa
Mike