Visor cap / real? or postwar?

[The Tiger]

Hi guys I need your help! Is this visor a real or a postwar? Opinions please! Thanks and best regards

[The Tiger]

here is the same markers . What markers is postwar?/what markers is real? Thanks and best regards

[enorepap]

Hallo Tiger

No. 1 is a valid and real TR postal service visor. The same for no. 2, only a different logo. Postwar visors bear the logo as no. 1 but without the printed half-eagle you can view on the visor's drawing, reproduced in the logo.

Wartime Schlientz:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=schlientz
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=schlientz
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=205197&page=5

Best regards

[The Tiger]

enorepap thanks very much!

[88 Luftballons]

Hallo Tiger

No. 1 is a valid and real TR postal service visor. The same for no. 2, only a different logo. Postwar visors bear the logo as no. 1 but without the printed half-eagle you can view on the visor's drawing, reproduced in the logo.

Wartime Schlientz:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=schlientz
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=schlientz
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=205197&page=5

Best regards

I disagree. Imo, only the visor in post no. 2 is a genuine Pre-war sample. The one pictured in post no. 1 is not.

The German Post carried on to wear the pre-war clothing until 1952, quite the same way the German customs did. For both organizations stock clothes of WW2-origin with provisionally added or changed insignia (repainted cockades, no swastikas) were used in the first years. As there weren`t enough stock visor caps left to equip the whole organization, post and custom officials in some cases received new, post-war made caps in the old style.

You can distinguish the old caps from the new ones easily by the "zig-zagged" lining which never appears in pre-war caps. It is no more oilcloth, but a more advanced material. Also, in the pre-war cap, Schlientz used the Pekuro-style sweatband, and - as said in the logo - as a maker, not only a distributor, he surely held the license to use the design.

The cap in post no. 1 -which clearly has a more modern logo of newer and better design - is not equipped with the velvet Pekuro-style sweatband (although it could be made by Pekuro) and would be a step back in evolution. As the obviously newer visor, this could only have happened when the Pekuro-license agreement ran out. I guess, the printed half-eagle was omitted some time after the war. Bearing no swastika and being only a silhouette, this should have caused no trouble to the Allies.

[enorepap]

Hallo 88 Luft

I understand your arguments and I agree that in Deutschland stunde null everything (not only the visors) was recycled. So I could accept a personally re-use by a postman, but not that Schlientz dared to print a half Hoheitsabzeichen on his logo, as if he had won the war and had not the conquerors comfortably installed in his home, with a rope in their hands. Apart from the fact that no one has ever provided precise information on the history of the Schlientz Company neither before, nor during, nor after the war, here there are only three images from which I do not see this zig-zag lining and not even a real difference in the wasserdicht fabric of which it is made. I see the full PeKuRo-style stirndruckfrei and no one disputes that no. 2 is a war-time Schlientz, but the stirndruckfrei has been used safely after the war and I would not be surprised if it is still in use in the current generation of some german visors (I'm not a BRD collector). The fact that some dishonest sellers have applied TR badges on post-war Schlientz visors did the rest and increased the confusion. Finally, the fact that the design of no. 1 is graphically more modern and that it doesn't show the stirndruckfrei not automatically reveals that it is a post-war visor in my opinion and it is only a logical assertion that should be supported, as I said, from some in-depth information about the history of Schlientz, the regulations of the postmen uniforms in the period immediately following the war and finally the actual existence of commercial relations between Otto Schlientz and Peter Kuepper. In conclusion, your argument might be acceptable in principle, but it needs, in my opinion, some documentary evidence. If someone else intervenes or you have this documentation, this might be a good time to do a little more clarity.

Best regards

[88 Luftballons]

Hallo 88 Luft

I understand your arguments and I agree that in Deutschland stunde null everything (not only the visors) was recycled. So I could accept a personally re-use by a postman

It`s not a re-use I am talking about, it`s about a completely new made post-war visor cap - just done in the old pre-war style, which was adopted by the German postal services until 1952. Even the old collar tabs were worn on in the British zone of occupied Germany.

The cap is discussed currently on a German forum also - with divided opinions. There you can find a better picture of the zig-zagged lining - which you never will find in proven pre-war caps, only in early post-war stuff. Just have a look for yourself:



http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uplo...jh6sb97dgc.jpg

Well, the Allies had some other major difficulties than objecting to tiny eagle shapes the size of a pinhead - and no swastika in it at all. Otherwise these eagles wouldn`t been found in Germany until today...

http://www.thirdreichruins.com/reichsadler.htm

http://www.tracesofevil.com/2013/10/...zi-eagles.html

[stonemint]

Good points raised by both 88 & Marcello.


I agree, I have seen postwar-made hats that utilized Third Reich leftover stocks of sweatdiamonds/logos.


88, I am not clear on what you mean by the zig-zag--are you referring to the way the lining is attached, or the sweatband?


Rudi, could you show under the hood photos?


If a re-badged BRD visor, I would expect an imprint from the small cockade (assuming they did not utilize the wreath).


Also, I would expect 2 pairs of prong holes in the pasteboard.

[stonemint]

I am not up to speed on BRD hats, and do not have any photos of them worn up until 1952.


Here is one of the post-1952 models:

[stonemint]

I take it back--I do have a photo of a postwar Geiger with BRD post insignia (the date appears to be 1950).
It is the exact set-up as in the TR, with the exception of the LW-style visor:

[stonemint]

The plot thickens.
Here is a period TR visor that was re-badged postwar by a thrifty postman:

[stonemint]

Here is an OS artillery extramuetze.
They did use a Pekuro-type stirndruckfrei system, but it is not Pekuro's (otherwise it would say "Deutsches Reichspatent)".


Most Reichspost visors are contract visors issued thru the PKK (the postal Kleiderkasse) and are cheaply made, so I would not expect a rayon lining or a lot of padding to the visor.

[enorepap]

Hallo Chris

I think that 88 Luft want to demonstrate the net difference between:

1. The stiff oilcloth treated wartime waterproof lining;
2. The plasticized rubber postwar waterproof lining.

This evolution is certainly understandable, but I still do not understand why, if visor no. 1 is postwar because it shows the second type of lining, Schlientz printed it with the half-eagle logo (which is therefore undoubtedly wartime). In short, the promiscuous use theory does not convince me at least until proven otherwise. In this regard, I remember that it is known also a third type of the Schlientz logo ie the one without the half eagle and I believe that it was actually used by this company (I ignore the start date) and not only by the counterfeiters. Since the matter is entangling, I think like you that actually Rudi must check the holes (for the eagle's prongs or for the horn with lightning's prongs; the same procedure for the cockade). The truth can not escape the outcome of this control.

Best regards

[88 Luftballons]

Some more postwar pictures (1946-50) with those caps in wear - observe the completely different insignia:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7b5ccb1d52.jpg

http://www.noz.de/media/2016/12/21/2...12052_full.jpg

http://www.mopo.de/image/6491824/max...69af22-jpg.jpg

The cap in post no. 2 of this topic is also a postal services visor (more pics on the German forum) and that one has the Pekuro-style sweatband.

So, as both visors belong to the same organization, there must have been a significant break in the production line or some other reason for the change of the setup. And imo this thick leather-imitation sweatband is more likely to be found in post-war visors. In a late war cap I would expect the paper-thin, uncoloured leather. I also wouldn`t expect Rayon to be used, but the different sweatband and the material of the lining in the caps do generally indicate a production break and a new start for some reason.

[stonemint]

88, thanks for the links and info--always great to see something new.

Here is a photo taken during the immediate postwar era of Edda & Emmy Goering.
It does not appear that the postman's hat is color-piped: