Polizei Panzer checkered insignia for M43 cap?

[Zauberflöte]

And perhaps a useful remark; the illustrations used in post #13 are taken from WW2 era publications (I believe Taschenkalender von Die Deutsche Polizei); so I think it is safe to assume these one-piece insignia could actually have been produced?



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[jwh44]

Hello
I have this photo.
Regards
Alain

[90th Light]

And perhaps a useful remark; the illustrations used in post #13 are taken from WW2 era publications (I believe Taschenkalender von Die Deutsche Polizei); so I think it is safe to assume these one-piece insignia could actually have been produced?
.

Agreed.

However, there is no photographic evidence to show that such a police black panzer M43 cap was ever made. May be such a photo will emerge but so far no luck

The same challenge also exists for LW black panzer HG M43's. There are certain examples in collections today that have a "real ?" chance, but no photos have yet been found to back them up,

Chris

[Zauberflöte]

Agreed.

However, there is no photographic evidence to show that such a police black panzer M43 cap was ever made. May be such a photo will emerge but so far no luck
.....
Chris

Agreed as well; hence the reason I started this thread, merely in the hope for...

Thanks
F.

[Erik]

Hello
I have this photo.
Regards
Alain

Super picture, thanks for posting!

Erik

[Zauberflöte]

Agreed.

However, there is no photographic evidence to show that such a police black panzer M43 cap was ever made. May be such a photo will emerge but so far no luck

...

Chris

Re-thinking this; for me personally this will never be a reason to 100% diskwalify a potential good item or doubt its existance, especially when you have to consider the rarity already in it's time. I'm sure you agree.
After all, for example no one doubts the Polizei version of the M44 dot camo tunic or M44 blue/grey tunic were issued and worn but no period era photo proof has emerged so far to back this up (only photo's known to me are post war -1946- Polizei officials glad in the latter).

[Zauberflöte]

....
The only known photos of a panzer police M43 always show this model being worn with the large eagle badge, separate cockade and single button...

These illustrations are taken from German Uniforms of the Third Reich - B.L. Davis, as known, all taken from contemporary photographes and exactly copied.

Unfortunately I am not familiar with the original photo but obviously it shows the M43 Panzer cap with two button clousure (here with only the Polizei eagle and no cockade).

[90th Light]

Re-thinking this; for me personally this will never be a reason to 100% diskwalify a potential good item or doubt its existance, especially when you have to consider the rarity already in it's time. I'm sure you agree.
After all, for example no one doubts the Polizei version of the M44 dot camo tunic or M44 blue/grey tunic were issued and worn but no period era photo proof has emerged so far to back this up (only photo's known to me are post war -1946- Polizei officials glad in the latter).

No argument from me on the point you make in post number 21, as we discussed on this thread (link below) that you were involved in;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=HG+panzer+M43

and exactly that point was made for consideration on this thread;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=HG+panzer+M43

And of course what would we all give to find that elusive photo for this one;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=260576

We are on the same wave length. However, sadly the camp of WAF often divides into the "blue" and the "grey" on such items,

Chris

[Zauberflöte]

No argument from me as we discussed on this thread that you were involved in;
......

We are on the same wave length humbsup However, sadly the camp of WAF often divides into the "blue" and the "grey" on such items,

Chris

Thank you Chris, I know, and appreciate as always your participation. In the Police Forum this same discussion remains - surprisingly - lifeless.

[90th Light]

Thank you Chris, I know, and appreciate as always your participation. In the Police Forum this same discussion remains - surprisingly - lifeless.

My pleasure, very interesting thread and question.

Here is another thread where HG black panzer cap insignia was discussed;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=HG+panzer+M43

There are a couple of surprising period examples,

Chris

[MarcoPennisi]

Dear all,

First time I have seen this insignia executed in black for what I suppose was intended for the Panzer M43 cap.

Those M43 Panzer caps were certainly worn as period photos proof, but I always figured them to be with the standard Polizei insignia; has any one ever seen this specific type in wear?

Thanks in advance.

(PS have made parallel post in Polizei Forum)

It's the standard one-piece eagle & cockade insignia for AFV crewmen's M43 field caps. Two-piece insignias were more habitual (the same applies to mottled-green M43 caps).
MP

[MarcoPennisi]

Sometimes used and seen on Fire Police caps.

>>> <<<

One-piece insignia on Feuerwehren M43 caps have a dark-blue backing, not black.
MP

[MarcoPennisi]

<<<
Also bear in mind, in contrary to other branches, Polizei M43 caps started with the one button closure because of the two piece insignia combinations (in cloth and/or metal) as many photos from 1943 onwards also show. The two button clousure is typical late war in this case. <<< :

Police M43 caps in general did start with the two-button closure (at first with two-piece insignias). More often than not, 1942-pattern single-buttoned mountain caps are mistaken for field caps in period photos. Not unlike Luftwaffe and Waffen-SS, single-piece insignias were introduced later. Police AFV crewmen's
M43 caps seem to make an exception, for the most part of the period pictures (few,indeed) show single-buttoned caps as early as in 1943/1944 winter.
MP

[MarcoPennisi]

And perhaps a useful remark; the illustrations used in post #13 are taken from WW2 era publications (I believe Taschenkalender von Die Deutsche Polizei); so I think it is safe to assume these one-piece insignia could actually have been produced? .

AFAIK colored plates in Deuster's book are not taken from period publications (BTW Taschenkalender von Die Deutsche Polizei is not the correct title, but I have Taschenlkalender für die Feuerschutzpolizei und Feuerwehren 1941, Taschenkalender für die Gendarmerie 1942 and so on ). Some of them appear to be the colored rendition of De Krijger's b&w plates (published 20 years ago or more).
Doubting the production and the existance of "Panzer Polizei" M43 one-piece insignias (which have been in collections for decades and are exactly the same as their unquestioned , gray-green backed counterparts) elude my understanding. I'll concede that their actual use on single- vs double- button caps may be debated.
MP

[Zauberflöte]

AFAIK colored plates in Deuster's book are not taken from period publications.. Some of them appear to be the colored rendition of De Krijger's b&w plates (published 20 years ago or more).
....

Are you sure Marco? These are typical for the contemporary coulour plates and Deuster specifically mentions no post war sources for his Übersichtstafeln?

Police M43 caps in general did start with the two-button closure (at first with two-piece insignias). More often than not, 1942-pattern single-buttoned mountain caps are mistaken for field caps in period photos. Not unlike Luftwaffe and Waffen-SS, single-piece insignias were introduced later. Police AFV crewmen's
M43 caps seem to make an exception, for the most part of the period pictures (few,indeed) show single-buttoned caps as early as in 1943/1944 winter.
MP

Actually I was referring to Panzer caps, 'in this case' is of course the cap subject of this thread. But thank you for your addiional observation