Polizei Panzer checkered insignia for M43 cap?

[Zauberflöte]

Dear all,

First time I have seen this insignia executed in black for what I suppose was intended for the Panzer M43 cap.

Those M43 Panzer caps were certainly worn as period photos proof, but I always figured them to be with the standard Polizei insignia; has any one ever seen this specific type in wear?

Thanks in advance.

(PS have made parallel post in Polizei Forum)

[galizien41]

I have never seen an original one of those either. If correct, obviously a super rare piece, rarer than an HG black panzer M43.
I wish you luck. But from looking at that one small image, I would be skeptical of the cap itself from what limited amount I can see.

[90th Light]

Sometimes used and seen on Fire Police caps.

As far as being rarer than an "HG black panzer M43 cap", I do not know of any 101% beyond doubt black panzer HG M43 in any collection in the world today. If there is then please post it here on WAF, we would love to see it. All black panzer HG M43's known to exist today, have had doubts expressed one way or the other.

However, I do agree that an original 101% black panzer police M43 would probably be just as rare,

Chris

[billbert]

If the eagle is machine sewn we need to see more of that cap..might be a winner...Billbert

[Zauberflöte]

Sometimes used and seen on Fire Police caps.

....

Chris

But wouldn't those be executed in dark blue then?

Only evidence so far executed in black I found in the Uniform Tafel on page 97, Deutsche Polizei Uniformen from Dieter Deuster (indeed attributed to Orpo Panzer ). But would love to see one on a period photo.

I might follow up with the rest of the cap later; in that case to be continued.

[Erik]

It could be the photograph but is it actually a black piece of insignia or indeed rather dark blue? Very interesting indeed.

Erik

[Zauberflöte]

It could be the photograph but is it actually a black piece of insignia or indeed rather dark blue? Very interesting indeed.

Erik

It is definitely black

[90th Light]

But wouldn't those be executed in dark blue then?

Only evidence so far executed in black I found in the Uniform Tafel on page 97, Deutsche Polizei Uniformen from Dieter Deuster (indeed attributed to Orpo Panzer ). But would love to see one on a period photo.

I might follow up with the rest of the cap later; in that case to be continued.

Hard to say and we can but speculate if such a black M43 cap with the small one piece police badge did ever exist.

The only known photos of a panzer police M43 always show this model being worn with the large eagle badge, separate cockade and single button (see image below),

Chris

[90th Light]

All other known photos of panzer police personal show either the police side-cap or visor hat being worn.

Of course someone reading this might know more about panzer police M43's and advance our knowledge. However, at this stage these are what the photos tell us to date,

Chris

[Zauberflöte]

True Chris; hence my question.

At the same time, I think Polizei M43 caps show the most diversity among all the M43 caps from other branches. Also, the checkered - late war- Polizei insignia is less often encountered in general, so the same would go for the even more rare Panzer version IMO.

And as an perhaps interesting side-note; most period images I have seen where the combined one piece insignia is being worn on the Polizei blue/green M43 cap (and on original examples), it is most always on a two button closure M43 cap. It is safe to assume IMO, the same would go for the Panzer version.

[Zauberflöte]

Herewith two interesting photo's of Orpo Panzer personnel; note the diversity in headgear being worn, including black M43 caps. In the bottom photo shown with seperate insignia; unfortunately the top photo is too small to distinguish.

[derka]

Hard to say and we can but speculate if such a black M43 cap with the small one piece police badge did ever exist.

The only known photos of a panzer police M43 always show this model being worn with the large eagle badge, separate cockade and single button (see image below),

Chris

I agree with Chris comments above.

Another illustration :



Or the blue/green version :



i saw this black M43 offered for sale this year :





But i don't think it is an original one.
derka

[Zauberflöte]

Hi Guys;

Thank you for your input, much appreciate.

But please note my point made in post #10 about the two button closure caps. I am already familiair with the type of caps you show; I actually hoped to learn more about the one piece insignia...

Also bear in mind, in contrary to other branches, Polizei M43 caps started with the one button closure because of the two piece insignia combinations (in cloth and/or metal) as many photos from 1943 onwards also show. The two button clousure is typical late war in this case.

I also believe the cap you show is not a good one Chris.

Herewith the images from the Deuster book:

[derka]

What about this one shown on the forum by Akira ?



Looks 2 separate insignias.

[Zauberflöte]

Great photo Derka; indeed with a common combination of two insignia.

What I meant; if you see the one piece insignia it is mostly on the two button front clousure M43 cap, NOT impliyng that other combinations are not possible, since of course they were. And yes, I have myself a one button clousure cap with the one-piece insignia so again; also this is possible, but far less common IMO.