Dutch made, German DAK used pith helmet for sale ?

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hello all

Here is a Dutch/SA sunhelmet for sale on a good reputable dealers site. It is listed as a "Rare Dutch made pith helmet as used by Heer troops in North Africa,". However it has a makers stamp Everett.W Vero & Co who were a London based company that made Tommy helmet liners from 1937- 1944. Not sure if they just made liners or not ? What are your thoughts on this helmet ?

All comments welcome ?

description
http://ww2germanmilitaria.com/Helmets3.asp
photos
http://ww2germanmilitaria.com/galler...f=R-HAD-HEL-26

Makers mark

[Tim O'Keefe]

Here is an original Dutch made pith actually used by the 15th Pz Div DAK in Afrika. And a link to Mike's excellent site, Virtual Grenadier...thanks Larry & D

http://www.virtualgrenadier.com/sale_item.php?iid=2159

[NickG]

Those Dutch made "Polo" helmets (from Mol Breda) were indeed Dutch manufactured contracts for the South African army. Definitely not a Dutch military pattern...it was an export order, a foreign, non Dutch pattern...
These helmets were never delivered due to the German invasion of Holland and during the occupation discovered and taken as war booty to Germany and later issued to DAK troops.

I do not believe that the helmet that started this thread is one of those since it's not Dutch maker marked...a different Commonwealth contract...(London based Co) ...so even though it's the same style, definitely unrelated to the captured "Holland" SA piths, an export contract for South Africa that remained stranded in Holland due to the German occupation and with added a German shields issued in brand new unissued condition to DAK forces being equipped in Germany before deployment. (They traveled with these pity's to Africa...)
Of course pith helmets such as this UK maker stamped one could still have been used by DAK while captured in the field, so re-used by the opposing forces...anything is possible...but it's not a Dutch capture example, even though it is dated 1940.
The Virtual Grenadier pith description is not entirely correct ....This dealer states: it is thought that these Dutch made helmets were used by Commonwealth troops in North Africa and that captured stocks were modified with insignia for German use....(actually modified in Germany after transfer from Holland and sent to Africa with the troops...not battle field captured! )

[Bob Lyons]

Just to add a bit more, the helmet that is shown in the above photos (from Mike Davis) now resides with me here in Melbourne, and I have been asking about the history of them too, and my understanding is that they are indeed a sun helmet with an identity crisis, made in Holland for export to the South African Military, but captured by the Germans when they invaded Holland, and before the helmets could be exported. They were then subsequently issued to the 8th Panzer Regiment (15th Panzer Division), and the subsidiary units of the 8th Panzer Regiment. It seems that from what I have been able to glean, is that this was the only outfit that were issued the Dutch/South African/captured helmets for use in north Africa.

Just for info too, the helmet photographed that was sold my MD, is the same helmet that is in the Kurtz/Schiffer book on the DAK (Volume 1), and also the same helmet appears in the early DAK work by D. McGuirk and it is without the breather vent on the top in Dal's book. The vent for the helmet was added at a later stage.

Cheers

Bob

[Mark Gibson]

The British made helmets do turn up and I will be straight forward and say that any British made example purporting to be German used is a fake. Dutch piths issued to German troops are truly rare.
The Dutch piths are known to have been issued to PzRegt 8 and members of 33rd Artillery Regiment.

Mark

[Bob Lyons]

The British made helmets do turn up and I will be straight forward and say that any British made example purporting to be German used is a fake. Dutch piths issued to German troops are truly rare.
The Dutch piths are known to have been issued to PzRegt 8 and members of 33rd Artillery Regiment.

Mark

Bob

[msteve21]

Sun helmets

any British made example purporting to be German used is a fake

So what been said is, The Germans did not capture and use British sun helmets during the Africa campaign?

Dutch piths issued to German troops are truly rare.

, Agree..any idea of how many exist today in collections?

[Tim O'Keefe]

Thanks Nick, Bob & Mark(s)

Agree with almost everything said. Was pretty sure the maker on the German used "Dutch" helmets was Breda not EW Vero Co which is from England.

Thanks Bob for the further info and history of your outstanding helmet Let me know when you decide to sell it

The units from the 15th Pz Div equipped with the Dutch helmet received them in Germany not captured stock from Afrika. This is proven by studio and group photos from April '41 in Germany. a rather large amount was captured in Holland in 1940. First thought it was a few hundred but now believe the number is closer to 2000 or even 3000. This is based on the units that wore them in Afrika in May '41 which are included in the 15 Pz Div. In 8th Pz Regt, the 2nd, 5th & 6th Co's all received them as well as the HQ company 2nd Bn. Very likely the other company's did also. As did 33rd Art Regt, & 33rd Recon Bn and the Pz Jg units too. Agree the only units to use the Dutch made helmets were from the original 15th Pz Div.

So what been said is, The Germans did not capture and use British sun helmets during the Africa campaign?

Agree..any idea of how many exist today in collections?

Quote: Mark S

Good points Mark S

To clarify MarkG's point, in June '42 with the fall of Tobruk many more South African sunhelmets were captured but these were not Dutch made. Some of these may have had German shields attached but not in the numbers of the captured Dutch made helmets. Nowadays its very easy to stick on German shields to a SA helmet and then try to sell it as a German used example for $4K...

How many Dutch made examples still exist is the question everyone wants to know ??

I also agree the threadstarter is not a German used helmet but just an English/SA helmet souped-up with the German shields. Also believe the dealer did not attach the shields himself but some-one prior did post war.

Here is a photo of Helmuth Orschiedt from the 33rd Art DAK, May 1941, and his mates just after circling around Tobruk on the sandy Axis bypass road and getting back on the Via Balboa, having just drove about 500 miles to the front, they are covered in red dust but you can see he and his fellow solders are wearing the Dutch helmets captured in Holland. Helmuth is the 2nd from the left.

cheers
Tim

[darekm]

Fyi

Description now amended:

http://www.ww2germanmilitaria.com/Helmets3.asp

[pauke]

pithed off

It would be interesting to determine if these helmets were an issue item for Dutch troops in tropical climates. A friend who was a ranking NCO in AA 33 bristled at the statement the helmets were captured and said to me they were procured through normal channels. So were they actually "captured" or purchased from a Dutch manufacturer? Are the few know Dutch examples dated?

[Mark Gibson]

Description now amended:

http://www.ww2germanmilitaria.com/Helmets3.asp

Very honourable Darek, you have done the right thing.

Regards,

Mark

[NickG]

It would be interesting to determine if these helmets were an issue item for Dutch troops in tropical climates. A friend who was a ranking NCO in AA 33 bristled at the statement the helmets were captured and said to me they were procured through normal channels. So were they actually "captured" or purchased from a Dutch manufacturer? Are the few know Dutch examples dated?

No not a Dutch pattern, export contract as already stated. Polo style as used by Commonwealth troops from South Africa (S.A. Army)

Description now amended:

http://www.ww2germanmilitaria.com/Helmets3.asp

The dealer did the right thing...its a twin but UK made example that he is offering...
The Dutch contract SA army polo piths on the other hand were diverted from Holland to Germany in 1940 and Heer tropical shields were added.
Here's an image of Pz soldiers (prior to DAK deployment at barracks in Germany still) posing with newly issued Polo helmets ,which is further proof
that these were not picked up, not captured on the N.African battlefield!(but some could have been battle field pick ups later ; fall of Tobruk, I agree!)

[Tim O'Keefe]

Thanks again Nick, great photo ! Agree these were issued in Germany. The Dutch used a completely different Dutch designed pith helmet in the Far East. Here is another photo from fellow member Karston (thanks), this time the 15th Pz Div, 8th Pz Regt, 2nd Bn Stab Co taken in Germany Easter '41. The entire company has had them issued along with their tropical kit, notice no tk's attached yet either.

Someone asked my source on the different Co's that wore the Dutch helmet in Pz Regt 8. No inside source, just observing the Company numbers on the side of the turrets with crewman wearing the Dutch helmets, same for 33 Art Regt, & 33 Recon Bn etc, in photos during May/June '41.

Are the Dutch made helmets dated ? Anyone ??

On Tobruk, in June '42 when the DAK captured Tobruk the Germans did capture some SA/English made helmets but not the Dutch made helmets.

& Yes the dealer eventually did the right thing but this helmet could have been sold for 4k as an original. & it still would be offered as such if not for this thread. Better to verify your items are original before offering them as such....

[Dermot Foley]

Hi Tim,

This Dutch Polo/Pith helmet is dated 1940.

Regards,

D

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi D

Thanks alot for posting Ken N's book photos, have just been reminded of them from Bob as well 1940 dated. Here are a few more photos of Bob's outstanding helmet...first couple are the front and rear, you can see the shadow of the chinstrap in the first.