Another Tropical M40 with a sweatband ?

[RGD51]

Would say there could be a connection in the details or close enough. Again if a faker goes to all the trouble of coming up with such a good cap why no soutache ? Just one more step and then the cap is worth double, maybe triple ?

To be clear i do not own one of these & am not trying to manipulate the market, and anyone can add any comments will be appreciated

That really is the crux of the issue. "If" fake then it really sets a new standard as to quality but, in another way, it's quite dumb from a monetary point and it's also quite labor intensive. If someone said this is the new fake coming from Japan I'd believe it as they are insane about this kind of detail. From my point of view its newness makes me a bit squeamish as it shows zero signs of any age.

Robt.
PS....another observation would be that a white crinoline instead of black has been used in the sweatband and the red fabric itself is not nubby at all....rather modern looking fabric.

[Ceasarion]

Anyone ever hear of a DAK mutz Uniform

manufacter known as "Posener" OR "posehen" or the likes on a DAK m-40 Officers cap that follows with a Uniform und mutz then something????? Please help I've went over all the KNOWN mfgrs listed in forums and books I can find. Is this a washed out ma and pa Mfgr perhaps. VERY faded but nubby style interior but I'm going blind in many lights trying to read this faded old girl out properly. I would love any imput you can supply and thank you.

[RGD51]

manufacter known as "Posener" OR "posehen" or the likes on a DAK m-40 Officers cap that follows with a Uniform und mutz then something????? Please help I've went over all the KNOWN mfgrs listed in forums and books I can find. Is this a washed out ma and pa Mfgr perhaps. VERY faded but nubby style interior but I'm going blind in many lights trying to read this faded old girl out properly. I would love any imput you can supply and thank you.

Yeah, please start another thread for your cap! We're talking about Hans Brandt M40 842 cap. Thanks!

Robt.

[Tim O'Keefe]

That really is the crux of the issue. "If" fake then it really sets a new standard as to quality but, in another way, it's quite dumb from a monetary point and it's also quite labor intensive. If someone said this is the new fake coming from Japan I'd believe it as they are insane about this kind of detail. From my point of view its newness makes me a bit squeamish as it shows zero signs of any age.

Robt.
PS....another observation would be that a white crinoline instead of black has been used in the sweatband and the red fabric itself is not nubby at all....rather modern looking fabric.

Thanks for indentifying the sweatband, interesting.
Agree completely Robert, a real opportunity was missed when these caps were made, (if "fake") to make a great deal more money on them by simply adding a soutache. Which i don't believe for a minute that a faker would go to all this trouble of making the perfect fake then decide not to add a soutache just does not add up $ wise. These caps do look very fresh, but then again so do most of the beehive caps.

We have not seen any HB used vet bring back sidecaps among the hundreds of beehive HB sidecaps ? For that matter how many CW tropical sidecaps are vet bring backs yet agian there were hundreds found in the beehive cache ? So the fact that there are no HB M40 vet bring backs doesn't mean much.

Anyway here are a couple more pics to keep the fires burning. Anyone else feel free to add your opinion ? Great discussion so far

[Mark Gibson]

Tim,
your perception about this being the perfect fake is completely wrong. It isn't the perfect fake as experienced collectors have easily seen this for what it is, just another fake that they just haven't gotten right. Adding a soutache wouldn't change a thing particularly since finding period soutache is quite difficult. Soutache or not, it would still be an obvious fake.

Mark

[RGD51]

Once a few things get ferreted out the "perfect fake" ceases to be perfect. A scary one nevertheless and I would say, if placed on a table at a show, whether in minty condition or aged up, it would fool 95% or more of the collectors who handle it. Understand the narrow spectrum of collectors that have the advantage of a forum such as this which can do a very detailed critique and get the word out. For the most part, a huge percentage will be out of the loop or just fail to realize the finer points.

Robt.

[Paris Gun]

Although original soutache can now be sourced from Europe via the occasional eBay auction, perhaps it wasn't available when these hats were made?

Also, I could swear I once saw an image of one of the "super fakes" from Japan with this exact marking as an available option.

Regardless, if the mere absence of a soutache is one of this hat's strongest elements one can offer in the tacit defense of these hats, then if we were to assume the omission of a soutache was purposively done (instead of the result of a lack of means when constructed) in order to avoid the greater scruitiny that such would trigger given the impact on one's wallet, then I submit the "illusioneer" has succeeded in their aim.

Still, I echo the sentiment that this hat is a nice, well constructed piece that would be a great "filler": in the possession of the proper person! Admittedly, I wouldn't hesitate to buy this hat on a table either IF it were priced accordingly (ie. Less than original; MUCH LESS, but definately more than that of 99% of available reproductions given its detailed construction and apparent original insignia). Further, it would indeed be safe in my possession b/c as an attorney, I would be disbarred from practice if I were to ever even OFFER it for sale as an original; additionally, I'm well aware of the criminal implications that could result if I engaged in such conduct. Besides, my mommy raised me, and my alma mater reinforced the responsibility not to 'lie, cheat or steal.' I'm also certain MANY forum members fit this mold as well and are equally qualified to possess such a piece.

BUT, another's greed &/or impulse to lessen the damage they might have already sustained to their own wallets is where things get 'tricky'; therefore, I offer my "Rules of Engagement" for others' consideration (because they certainly apply to the numerous issues that a hat such as this presents/ could create):
1. Don't ever try to 'convince' yourself when confronted by an item such as this.
2. IF you do decide to take a 'gamble', be willing to accept the fact that "the house ALWAYS wins"; in so doing, you won't rely on 'lady luck', as that b*tch is VERY CONVINCING.
3. Apply the 'Golden Rule' to your collecting/ hobby and you'll sleep better.
4. Educate yourself, don't be affraid to ask for help from others, and accept responsibility for your actions.

Have fun & good hunting!

[Tim O'Keefe]

I am reminded once again to "never" use words like "always" & "perfect" on a Forum such as this as there is often exceptions and new information coming. If anyone has any info on the origin of these caps please post.

Agree, this is not the "perfect fake" and should have chosen my words more carefully under the circumstances. The grommets alone do not make it "perfect" nor the different eagle application, or even the interesting makers marks. However it will fool 95% of the collectors in the future when its labled original. If these are/were coming out of the back door of Germany then there will be more trouble ahead.....as they are some of the best fakes iv'e seen.

Want to thank everyone that spoke up & all those following this thread as this is when the WAF is at its best,
& Paris very wise words

Heia Safari !
Tim

[RGD51]

Hey Tim, guess what, there are "perfect fakes" and they are the "originals" sitting in guys war rooms. Naturally I'm referring to the fakes scarfed up by the unknowing who believe they are indeed original. And there they will sit until exposed and once that is done--they are no longer perfect!

Robt.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Have found another Hans Brandt fake M40 with an original eagle & cockade here on the Forum. This one has no sweatband, but does have a soutache (nebel maybe ?). From the outside it looks pretty good, not so good from the inside. The date stamp "41" is a nice touch and the contrived wear to the interior is amusing.

Here are a few photos....

[Tim O'Keefe]

Insignia, eagle is the zip & flipped application like the other HB M40 842's unlike the original HB sidecap 842's that are straight machine stitched.

[Tim O'Keefe]

interior

[Tim O'Keefe]

& grommets

[Mark Gibson]

I've had that one in my 'fake cap' reference files for many years now; something that I suggest any new collectors start doing.

Mark

[Tim O'Keefe]

Agree Mark,

First saw this fake back in 2007 and commented at the time that it should be avoided. Whats interesting is this cap is dated '41, has the added soutache & no sweatband added which is what i would expect from a faker to maximize his profit. Why add a sweatband and not add a soutache ? Soutache doubles the caps value right off.

The threadstarters sweatband is certainly interesting to say the least...How many variations of the HB M40 including 842's are out there ?

with best regards
Tim