Another Tropical M40 with a sweatband ?

[derka]

I'm not keen enought about tropical M40 caps to pretend to be able to offer a reliable opinion about those.
I'm just an observer, and frankly i don't know what to think about the two shown here.
At least, it can be noticed that if they are original, it seems they never had any soutache appliation.
So it would reinforce the analysis that this maker logicaly ceased too to apply soutaches on its sidecaps dated later, like october, november, etc...
derka

[Mark Gibson]

And now the maker stamp compared to one from the same maker's sidecap. I know these caps have been labled fake by a few collectors, buy am thinking its time for abit of a re-think on these, if the parts are good then its a good cap....

Tim,
I knew what you were going to end up revealing, not that hard to see from the limited pics that you had shown. Take some time to compare every aspect of this cap to known originals of any other maker and you will see many issues with this cap. Then compare it closely to the Hans Brandt sidecaps and you can see that they weren't even made by the same maker. Take a close look at the stamps that you have shown and there are significant differences. Even a quick look at the 842 reveals that they aren't the same.

Mark

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi NZMark

You raise good points. As far as i know these caps have only been found in the beehive cache so far, maybe 12 non soutached. But how many vet used HB sidecaps have we seen, 0 ?

The grommets question also gets me ? (as i started in the thread) but if the grommets are good (?) then that doesn't matter really that much. Other makers have used different grommets on their caps as well, CW for example.

& Why would a faker make an M40 so well then not bother to add a soutache knowing its much more desirable ?

[derka]

The seller of the cap i put pics indicated that "the piece originates from an old army depot in Southern Germany" (his exact words).
derka

[Mark Gibson]

Why would a faker make an M40 so well then not bother to add a soutache knowing its much more desirable ?

Tim,
there are limited makers of soutched caps which have faced heavy scrutiny, come from vet sources and been identified in period photographs by collectors with a real passion for these caps. It would seem to be a much easier con to produce a cap and claim that it came from the beehive find then to scratch build a copy of a known cap. I do think that I know who had these made but saying so without proof would get me into alot of trouble. Needless to say that they have appeared in the hands of certain closely linked resellers.

Mark

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Mark(s)

Sorry my above post was kinda lame reply, but agree with you both also. The stamps are different for sure. So grommets, insignia application, stamps do not match, agree not good signs....

& agree Derka if original, it does help to demonstrate that HB ceased adding the soutache after Aug '42.

So if only 12 of these "fakes" exist why not more ? Still on the fence on this one, but really appreciate everyone's input so far.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Tim,
there are limited makers of soutched caps which have faced heavy scrutiny, come from vet sources and been identified in period photographs by collectors with a real passion for these caps. It would seem to be a much easier con to produce a cap and claim that it came from the beehive find then to scratch build a copy of a known cap. I do think that I know who had these made but saying so without proof would get me into alot of trouble. Needless to say that they have appeared in the hands of certain closely linked resellers.

Mark

Mark

Yes i have thought of the same "maker" too. Trouble is some of these old time collectors with a real passion for these caps have stated they are original. But wanted to really air these caps out again to give everyone a good chance to discuss them.

thanks
Tim

[derka]

Hi Mark(s)

So if only 12 of these "fakes" exist why not more ? Still on the fence on this one, but really appreciate everyone's input so far.

Tim,
According seller's words and if i followed correct, could the "behive find" be considered as an old army depot in Southern Germany ?
AFIK, the seller has good reputation ans is considered honest, so i have no reason to suspect bad faith from him.
As he is member of the forum, i let him give more details about provinance of the cap he offered for sale if he wishes to.
derka

[Tim O'Keefe]

Tim,
According seller's words and if i followed correct, could the "behive find" be considered as an old army depot in Southern Germany ?
AFIK, the seller has good reputation ans is considered honest, so i have no reason to suspect bad faith from him.
As he is member of the forum, i let him give more details about provinance of the cap he offered for sale if he wishes to.
derka

Would say there could be a connection in the details or close enough. Again if a faker goes to all the trouble of coming up with such a good cap why no soutache ? Just one more step and then the cap is worth double, maybe triple ?

To be clear i do not own one of these & am not trying to manipulate the market, and anyone can add any comments will be appreciated

[Mark Gibson]

The seller of the cap i put pics indicated that "the piece originates from an old army depot in Southern Germany" (his exact words).
derka

Derka,
my question to the seller would be who exactly he got the cap from. I suspect it came from another reseller with a great story.

Mark

[B. N. Singer]

interior

If the first picture ('full interior overview') in post #11 is of the example in question, then I am afraid I must do a 180 degree about face and reverse my liking of this hat.

B. N. Singer

[Tim O'Keefe]

If the first picture ('full interior overview') in post #11 is of the example in question, then I am afraid I must do a 180 degree about face and reverse my liking of this hat.

B. N. Singer

The 45' angle photo ? As far as i know all photos, except those mentioned otherwise are from the threadstarter.

Thankyou Mr Singer

[B. N. Singer]

The 45' angle photo ?

The picture of the hat's interior, in your post #11, Sir is what has resulted in the radical reversal of my opinion about this example.

B. Regards,

B. N. Singer

[Tim O'Keefe]

Mark,
I do not own this cap, and only the seller could respond to your question.

It is interesting to note that exterior shells of grommets on this cap were not painted nor enamelled, althought it looks to have the same making origin that the one shown by Tim.

Aside those caps cases, i generaly don't like grommets with remains of paint here after crimping :



derka

Yes i noticed the lack of paint on your posted example. & agree paint on the area of the inside of the grommets you point out after crimping is generaly not a good sign.

[Tim O'Keefe]

The picture of the hat's interior, in your post #11, Sir is what has resulted in the radical reversal of my opinion about this example.

B. Regards,

B. N. Singer

Ok understood, here are a couple more & i don't see the three piece material sweatband either ?

Thankyou Sir