SS Pz M-43 discussion

[jamesray]

Please state your comments on the SS Pz EM M-43

[jamesray]

Part 2

#2

[Ian Hulley]

The insignia are 100% original ...

Ian

[R.H.J]

Dear Ian,

Yes the insignia are good but my concern is for the feldmutze itself.

No bias and the backside is made from 2 parts.

Regards
Ron

[Ian Hulley]

Dear Ian,

Yes the insignia are good but my concern is for the feldmutze itself.

No bias and the backside is made from 2 parts.

Regards
Ron

I can only comment on the insignia which are (as I said) original.

Ian

[90th Light]

I have copied and pasted something which I posted in another thread about SS M43 caps with HBT lining. SS M43 with an HBT lining are often automatically rejected outright, end of story but a WH or LW example is no problem and probably original. This just lacks comprehension that the one an only original SS M43's with HBT lining are those found at Dachau in May 1945.

Below is the experience of a collector of many years of collecting Third Reich material so I ask that you all please take the time to read a day that he has never forgotten.

Many thanks, Chris

"EDITED AND ENLARGED VERSION:
> > My friend was in Bielefeld and saw some of the horde of
> > W-SS material taken from a farmhouse near Augustdorf in late 2001. This
> > led from the discovery by a German collector of a store of old W-SS
> > uniforms and field gear in a farm house that had been removed from the
> > nearby W-SS barracks at Augustdorf in early April 1945 when the base was
> > evacuated by the W-SS as the Americans advanced. Augustdorf was the base
> > on the northern edge of the Sennelager training area used by the W-SS to
> > train crews of the heavy (Tiger) tank battalions. Among the large amount
> > of W-SS Panzer uniforms uncovered in early 2001 were at least three black W-SS
> > Panzer M43 caps, all with single button flaps and a separate eagle and
> > skull insignia attached to the front of the cap above the single composite retaining
> > button. These three caps had linings of steel blue-grey herring bone twill
> > material. My friend remembers the caps very well. When he saw the pile of
> > W-SS Panzer material two of the three black M43 caps had been sold. He
> > could have bought the last one but dithered because he was short of money
> > at the time. He has regretted that decision since. For those who may not
> > have heard of this amazing discovery the material had belonged to the old
> > farmer who died in 2000. Relatives who came to clear out the farm found
> > one room with an old industrial sewing machine and piles of clothing- some
> > 50 intact W-SS overcoats, more overcoats that had been shortened and
> > converted to single button front, black wrappers that had been cut down
> > and re-worked into a single button front, dyed a variety of browns and
> > greens, other tunics cut up and in various stages of civilian conversion,
> > boxes of scraps of large and small pieces of uniform cloth, and luckily
> > for collectors there were still a number of uniform items that had not
> > suffered from the old farmer's scissors. Camouflage items, like
> > smocks, had survived presumably because there was not the same ready
> > market for converted camouflages clothing as there was for dyed and
> > re-worked overcoats and wrappers and tunics. The German collectors who saw
> > the room assumed that production in the farm house had stopped at some
> > time after the war when Germans were no longer buying converted military
> > clothing. But the point of this story is simply that among this material
> > taken from the clothing store of the W-SS barracks at Ausgustdorf there
> > were black M43 caps with a blue-grey HBT lining.
> >
> >This amazing story from Augustdorf is one of the great finds of "treasure" in
Germany in recent years.The big German dealers, fists full of DM, were all on the
scene with a day of word of the discovery leaking out. There was some fast and
furious bidding by the dealers to get their hands on the treasure trove. Among
this large amount of W-SS uniforms were camouflage items like smocks and panzer
wrappers, plane tree helmet covers, though only in very small numbers, two or
three of each. There were aparently none of the late war pea pattern uniform
combinations. Most of the top end items, like still intact black wrappers with
the insignia still attached (some of the uniforms had their arm eagles and collar
patches removed) were sold immediately to advanced German collectors without ever
appearing on a dealer's list. How did this material end up in a farm house? There
were two schools of thought among the German collectors and dealers who saw it.
One possibility is that the W-SS deposited the material there themselves before
evacuating the base, to protect and preserve it by concealing it in the farm
house. This is a distinct possibility, given that the material included a few
pieces of field gear, e.g. bread bags, gasmasks and canisters, ammunition pouches,
water bottles, belts and buckles, boots even. The other possible explanation would
have to be that the farmer himself took his horse and cart to the barracks and
made a number of trips between the barracks and his farm, which was only about 2km
from the base. Residents living in there in 1945 reported the base had been
looted, by local villagers and farmers, in the hours between the time the W-SS
left the barracks and when the Americans arrived, about one day later. Even
though there were American combat units close by they did not actually enter the
base for over 12 hours after the WSS had left. In this time people were seen
walking through the barracks carrying away anything they felt was useful. Most
local people came looking for food, but things like towels and kitchen utensils,
stationery from the office, small items of furniture were removed too. It would
have been possible for a farmer with foresight of the likely shortage of clothing
in a postwar Germany to have come in and loaded up his cart with uniforms. It is
however a moot point as to why he would have also taken an assortment of basic
field gear. From the evidence of production converting the uniforms for civilian
use over a period, and assuming much had been sold by the farmer, there must have
been a considerable amount of uniform left in the farm house in late March 1945.
One can only speculate what may have been stored in the farm house in
late-March-early April 1945 in total.

END"[/QUOTE]

[90th Light]

Several will have written this cap off as bad because of the scratches and unusual wear to the button. That combined with the HBT lining = in some collectors book

Chris

[drbill]

I like the cap personally

[black george]

Never seen ss pz one button model with HBT lining,sorry,just my opinion.

[90th Light]

The experience and source of my report in post number 6 leaves me with no doubt that "ss pz one button model with HBT lining" were made before May 1945.

There are also similar ss pz one button caps shown in this book on the subject

"The Collector’s Guide to Cloth Headgear of the Allgemeine and Waffen-SS"
by M. Beaver with W. Shea publisherd by Schiffer.

Personally, I like the look of this cap and think it has "real" potential. However, I would need better images of various parts at the very least to be able to say more.

The one red flag that I can see is the scratching to the button. I know some advanced collectors take that as a bad sign,

Chris

[Ivan G.]

a Frankie hat with original cloth pieces?????

[drbill]

not a Frankie at all

[Rene Chavez]

So far from what I can tell looks good. IMO nothing wrong with the HBT lining.

Rene Chavez
www.foreignvolunteerlegion.com

[101combatvet]

I have copied and pasted something which I posted in another thread about SS M43 caps with HBT lining. SS M43 with an HBT lining are often automatically rejected outright, end of story but a WH or LW example is no problem and probably original. This just lacks comprehension that the one an only original SS M43's with HBT lining are those found at Dachau in May 1945.

Below is the experience of a collector of many years of collecting Third Reich material so I ask that you all please take the time to read a day that he has never forgotten.

Many thanks, Chris

"EDITED AND ENLARGED VERSION:
> > My friend was in Bielefeld and saw some of the horde of
> > W-SS material taken from a farmhouse near Augustdorf in late 2001. This
> > led from the discovery by a German collector of a store of old W-SS
> > uniforms and field gear in a farm house that had been removed from the
> > nearby W-SS barracks at Augustdorf in early April 1945 when the base was
> > evacuated by the W-SS as the Americans advanced. Augustdorf was the base
> > on the northern edge of the Sennelager training area used by the W-SS to
> > train crews of the heavy (Tiger) tank battalions. Among the large amount
> > of W-SS Panzer uniforms uncovered in early 2001 were at least three black W-SS
> > Panzer M43 caps, all with single button flaps and a separate eagle and
> > skull insignia attached to the front of the cap above the single composite retaining
> > button. These three caps had linings of steel blue-grey herring bone twill
> > material. My friend remembers the caps very well. When he saw the pile of
> > W-SS Panzer material two of the three black M43 caps had been sold. He
> > could have bought the last one but dithered because he was short of money
> > at the time. He has regretted that decision since. For those who may not
> > have heard of this amazing discovery the material had belonged to the old
> > farmer who died in 2000. Relatives who came to clear out the farm found
> > one room with an old industrial sewing machine and piles of clothing- some
> > 50 intact W-SS overcoats, more overcoats that had been shortened and
> > converted to single button front, black wrappers that had been cut down
> > and re-worked into a single button front, dyed a variety of browns and
> > greens, other tunics cut up and in various stages of civilian conversion,
> > boxes of scraps of large and small pieces of uniform cloth, and luckily
> > for collectors there were still a number of uniform items that had not
> > suffered from the old farmer's scissors. Camouflage items, like
> > smocks, had survived presumably because there was not the same ready
> > market for converted camouflages clothing as there was for dyed and
> > re-worked overcoats and wrappers and tunics. The German collectors who saw
> > the room assumed that production in the farm house had stopped at some
> > time after the war when Germans were no longer buying converted military
> > clothing. But the point of this story is simply that among this material
> > taken from the clothing store of the W-SS barracks at Ausgustdorf there
> > were black M43 caps with a blue-grey HBT lining.
> >
> >This amazing story from Augustdorf is one of the great finds of "treasure" in
Germany in recent years.The big German dealers, fists full of DM, were all on the
scene with a day of word of the discovery leaking out. There was some fast and
furious bidding by the dealers to get their hands on the treasure trove. Among
this large amount of W-SS uniforms were camouflage items like smocks and panzer
wrappers, plane tree helmet covers, though only in very small numbers, two or
three of each. There were aparently none of the late war pea pattern uniform
combinations. Most of the top end items, like still intact black wrappers with
the insignia still attached (some of the uniforms had their arm eagles and collar
patches removed) were sold immediately to advanced German collectors without ever
appearing on a dealer's list. How did this material end up in a farm house? There
were two schools of thought among the German collectors and dealers who saw it.
One possibility is that the W-SS deposited the material there themselves before
evacuating the base, to protect and preserve it by concealing it in the farm
house. This is a distinct possibility, given that the material included a few
pieces of field gear, e.g. bread bags, gasmasks and canisters, ammunition pouches,
water bottles, belts and buckles, boots even. The other possible explanation would
have to be that the farmer himself took his horse and cart to the barracks and
made a number of trips between the barracks and his farm, which was only about 2km
from the base. Residents living in there in 1945 reported the base had been
looted, by local villagers and farmers, in the hours between the time the W-SS
left the barracks and when the Americans arrived, about one day later. Even
though there were American combat units close by they did not actually enter the
base for over 12 hours after the WSS had left. In this time people were seen
walking through the barracks carrying away anything they felt was useful. Most
local people came looking for food, but things like towels and kitchen utensils,
stationery from the office, small items of furniture were removed too. It would
have been possible for a farmer with foresight of the likely shortage of clothing
in a postwar Germany to have come in and loaded up his cart with uniforms. It is
however a moot point as to why he would have also taken an assortment of basic
field gear. From the evidence of production converting the uniforms for civilian
use over a period, and assuming much had been sold by the farmer, there must have
been a considerable amount of uniform left in the farm house in late March 1945.
One can only speculate what may have been stored in the farm house in
late-March-early April 1945 in total.

END"

[/QUOTE]

Great story!