Hell-Grün Schirmmütze, Jäger?

[doomtown]

Hi fellas, picked this up off the E-stand the other day, any thoughts? It looks like a nice, private purchase EM/NCO cap for a Jäger(?) that got washed with hot water at some point... It still kinda smells like mothballs, so I'm assuming some bubba washed it with hot water and made the piping color run... The air vents look 100% identical to the ones that I've had on Schiffchens, so I don't have any worries there. I wish I could research the guy based on his name, that would answer a lot of questions! Anyone wanna take a stab at the eternal Hell-Grün question?

[doomtown]

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[doomtown]

named, and vents. No unit markings on the inner cap band.

[afrikasandman]

Hmmm well I have never been a big fan of the vents on the side of Heer caps but to each their own. The way the color is like that suggest to me that it had its pipping dyed at some point. When? Is anyones guess but its such a dark green I would tend to lean towards Admin. Matt

[doomtown]

Hi Matt, thanks for the reply. I know that these green waffenfarbe debates can be contentious, but I just don't see the dark color one would expect for an Admin cap. I thought Admin was a darker, green/blue like this: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ighlight=admin

Here's thread with a similarly faded piping, though mine is clearly worse.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hlight=j%E4ger

I can't get a decent pic of it, but the piping is much brighter in the parts that were shielded from the elements, which makes sense. It's possible that the piping might have been dyed, but I think it seems more like a crappy cleaning attempt that leeched the color out a bit. The front is much worse than the back in terms of color loss for instance.

[Chris D.]

My first impression was that it was dyed or colored in with a felt pen as well but I think I am going to have do disagree on the admin assessment.

Admin is usually a much darker and "cooler" tone that what I see here.

Further, and totally anecdotally, I feel as though those in admin would be some of the first to get the proper uniforms since they were in admin, where as I would expect to see some poor schmuck closer to front line duties getting an infantry visor and dying it himself to be more appropriate to his branch. My first thought was GJ but being possible dyed, who knows.

Just a thought or two.

[doomtown]

Thanks Chris!
I guess I should say I've never handled a dyed cap, so I dunno what one looks like. I'm also not super experienced with waffenfarbe, I'm usually all about Infanterie, which is very easy, haha. I wish I could get a good pic of the part of the piping that wasn't exposed, it's a very vibrant green. In the front of the cap, part of it was exposed by moths, so if it was dyed, he did a good job as it went all the way through. This whole thing would be moot if we could just look up "K.-H. Schmiedel" which I'm assuming is "Karl-Heinz Schmiedel". So close and yet so far!

[afrikasandman]

I have looked at a lot if dyed caps I. Pics and the due always has darker and lighter spotty appearance. The pics seem indicative of it to me. It's hard to say what branch but its a debate that will rage kn forever. Matt

[doomtown]

Thanks Matt, I haven't seen a bunch of dyed caps, so I imagine if you both agree it looks looks dyed it probably is. I just wish I could research this guy based on his name and find out what branch he was assigned to!

[90th Light]

Not all German dyes of the period up to May 1945 were "dye-fixed" This means that we they get wet, the dyes reactivates and starts to run.

I have seen a later war panzer visor cap left in a box on the floor of a damp basement over the years. When it was later discovered, the whole top had pink staining through the grey due to the dye not being fixed.

Other examples of poor dye fixing are sometimes seen in tropical M40 sidecaps and billed field caps. When the red linings get very wet, the red dye runs and enters the olive coloured twill creating reddish/ pinkish tone in the affected areas. This is one of the reasons why the German bleeched their tropical caps at the time to wash this dye-runned effect out. Several tropical caps found in the "Beehive" find that had been damp for a long time were red dye stained this way,

Chris

Below is an over-view on the topic;

Garments with unstable dyes may fade or run under certain conditions, causing damage to the garment itself or to items laundered with it. These conditions can include abrasion, long soaking time, hot water, use of bleach on some stains or pre-treating products.

"colorfast" means the fabric retains its original hue without fading or running and can be satisfactorily washed. However, that does not mean it's safe to mix colorfast fabrics.

Almost all new fabrics contain a small amount of excess dye that can come off during the first few washing and/or wearings. Any new, colored garment should be washed before it is worn.

Some colorfast fabrics contain dyes that will transfer to the wash load every time the fabric is washed. This can occur even if the fabric itself does not lose color. Bright red or orange dyes on cotton fabrics are a particular problem.

Color loss can occur immediately after the first wash. Or, dyes can remain stable for several washing, and then suddenly fade. Or, the fading can occur gradually each time the garment is washed. The latter occurrence is referred to as wash-down.

Even the choice of detergent can influence color loss. To an effective laundry detergent, an unstable dye is the same as loose soil -- it washes both of them away. The better the detergent performs, the more loose soil and/or dye it removes.

On cotton fabrics, certain types of bright red, yellow and blue dyes can be completely removed if they come in contact with liquid household bleach. If a color safe (oxygen) bleach comes into contact with certain dyes, especially those used to create turquoise, olive and rust colors on cottons, it can cause spots of color to disappear.

Some dyes, especially the blue dyes that are used in cotton jeans, come off when the fabric rubs against other things. This is why jeans sometimes lose their color along seam lines and garment edges. If jeans rub up against the washing machine's agitator post during laundering, streaks may appear where the color has rubbed off. For this reason, some manufacturers recommend turning their blue jeans inside out before washing.

[doomtown]

Hi, thanks Chris, I didn't know that about the dyes used in German caps, as I've only owned a few caps so far. I feel like it might be really hard to determine whether the color ran or if it was overdyed, since so many weird things were done to these caps by collectors and poor conditions alike since 1945. Having it in hand I feel like the colors ran, but my expertise is effectively zero here, but if it was dyed, it seems like it was quite awhile ago IMO.

[doomtown]

Here's some pics of the stiffner band that's in it currently, which seems to have soaked up some of the dye. Is this an TR era stiffner? It certainly looks like a wire coathanger to me, but I don't want to mess with it if I'm wrong, can I get some opinions on this?