Luftwaffe blue M41 cap, is it a winner?

[OSS]

Just a question please: I always thought that blue luft tropical uniforms and gear were made and issued before those made in tan (Am I right here ? ) So would it be more suitable to see an eagle hand sewn instead of machine sewn ? I mean all tan luft caps (side caps, Meyers, M41, ...) issued earlier in the war have insignia hand sewn. No ?
Regards, Pierre

I do not believe LW blue twill uniforms/caps/pith helmets predated their tan counterparts (some tan examples being dated '40), nor were they intended for the N. African theatre (imo) but rather for summer and warm climates where they would not contrast with other woolen blue grey uniform items being worn.

[John Hodgin]

I do not believe LW blue twill uniforms/caps/pith helmets predated their tan counterparts (some tan examples being dated '40), nor were they intended for the N. African theatre (imo) but rather for summer and warm climates where they would not contrast with other woolen blue grey uniform items being worn.

Wholly agree.

More when time permits.

[John Hodgin]

Perhaps "fantasy item" is an overstatement. An author, like John, however must allow for the possibility that such an item as the blue M-41 cap may have been produced on a small scale.

Thanks for the insight OSS, knew you would understand. You are correct, I should have not quoted your "fantasy" comment.

Am still working on Vol. 2, and regret that it is taking so long. However, presented in Vol. 2 is a much more extensive selection of M41 caps than can be seen in Vol. 1. The cap section of Vol. 2 will show the wide range of different types of M41 caps, in both officer and enlisted. Once again, David B. has been a tremendous help and resource for many of these examples; thanks David! And yet, just as with Vol. 1, NO blue-grey M41's are illustrated in Vol. 2, NOR are they mentioned. The copy for the cap section for Vol. 2 was written and photographed four to five years ago. The copy and major photography for the cap section of Vol. 1 was done ten to fifteen years ago. My opinion on blue-grey M41 caps has not varied nor changed before, or since then. This should be obvious.

To express it as simply as possible. Do I believe blue grey M41 caps were produced during WWII? No.

Do I absolutely know that no blue grey M41 caps were produced during WWII? Again, no. The example previously mentioned with original insignia was compelling, but the cap had no known history.

As stated in Vol. 1 and again by OSS here, M41 caps were not LBA produced. They were private purchase German manufactured, foreign "group" manufactured, and sometimes field made. If M41 caps were LBA produced this would be a simpler discussion with less nebulous conclusions, at least for myself. And I only speak for myself.

[John Hodgin]

And John, my comment regarding "textbook" was meant in no way to disparage you. Many of my comments are done in extreme haste and not always as complete as they should be. It should be clear from all the commentary in this thread that little to nothing is known of blue grey M41s, even if they exist. IMHO this would disallow any being classified as textbook. Quite different from say the Heer M40, of which many hundreds are posted here and fully evaluated. That's all, sorry if that was not how you read my post.

[ferdinandmax]

these two pictures have the same light, you can see the color of the straps and the hat of the soldier of the Luftwaffe, are the same, while the soldier has the straps dark green with olive-colored hat, both hats have a different color , which for me and one blue and the other olive-colored

[Mike Davis]

Yes, the tones are different between the two Heer caps in the above photos.

There were maker variations in the color of fabric used and then there is, of course, the significant differences that can be attributed to use and fading.

[ferdinandmax]

I'm sorry, but do not agree, for me it is enough to see a blue epaulettes, is a rare blue without ear protection regards sergio

[NZMark]

I'm sorry, but do not agree, for me it is enough to see a blue epaulettes, is a rare blue without ear protection regards sergio

Ferdinandmax - are you saying the cap in the image you posted has no false turn up and is blue?
I will again disagree - I can clearly see the seamline of the turn-up, while the cockade is a heer one and the eagle is simply replaced - as was common. The cap is less sun-faded and contrasts with the tan twill of the tunic, giving it a completely different 'grey' tone in the black and white photograph.
Is anyone able to post a higher resolution example of the same image?
Regards,
Mark
New Zealand

[90th Light]

Ferdinandmax - are you saying the cap in the image you posted has no false turn up and is blue?

Is anyone able to post a higher resolution example of the same image?
Regards,
Mark
New Zealand

Good idea Mark,

could someone post a bigger image of the LW example ??? .

I enlarged it with what I have here and I can not see the false turn up. The word "Bundesarchiv" is posted across it and is interfering with the picture at that point of study.

Not arguing Mark, because I know that if anyone has gone looking for billed tropical M40's with no "turn-up", it is you. Would hate to think how many images you have studied looking for that, I know you have a trained eye.

A larger image would however, help us see it because I can not see it and I may not be the only one

Chris

[NZMark]

Thanks Chris,
I've tried to see what I can do with the image but the resolution is too low for enlargement.
I've added a line where I see the light/shadow of the seam with a comparison. I hope this helps...
Mark
New Zealand

[OSS]

Yes, the tones are different between the two Heer caps in the above photos.

There were maker variations in the color of fabric used and then there is, of course, the significant differences that can be attributed to use and fading.