Heer black Pz sidecap

[OSS]

I believe the cockade is a modern reproduction, I have never seen one like it (even among your pictured group). If the cap had a period cockade (as most good fakes do), I still wouldn't like it. One thing that strikes me about the cockade is the disproportionally large white field, also it looks like modern computerized machine weaving. I hope the insignia wonks will take a look at it and offer their opinions.

[90th Light]

I believe the cockade is a modern reproduction, I have never seen one like it (even among your pictured group). If the cap had a period cockade (as most good fakes do), I still wouldn't like it. One thing that strikes me about the cockade is the disproportionally large white field, also it looks like modern computerized machine weaving. I hope the insignia wonks will take a look at it and offer their opinions.

Thanks OSS,

I repeat I am not defending the cap. I have not seen one by that maker with a black lining. "Intriguing" was the descriptive word I used.

However, I would like to see a bigger, close up image of the panzer cockade on that cap and have posted what I am comparing it with for you all to see.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and observations about it. That is both helpful and interesting.

Does anyone have an image of such a fake cockade that they can post here ?

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

The threadstarter Cap's cockade does not match any of the original cockades shown so far on this thread, and doubt it is of WWII origin along with the cap. Notice the almost perfect red center of the cockade as Mark G mentioned earlier.

[derka]

Chris, are those that what you are looking for ?

Black Pz EM sidecap



Black Aufkl officer sidecap



Feldgrau EM sidecap



derka

[90th Light]

Chris, are those that what you are looking for ?

Black Pz EM sidecap
Black Aufkl officer sidecap
Feldgrau EM sidecap

derka

Thanks Derka & Tim,

all fakes ?, I guess I am starting to see what Mark was saying. Looks like I was not up to speed on these.

Just goes to prove, never hurts to ask "why" in ones learning curve.

What about the one pictured below ?

Chris

[LuckyStrike23]

Sorry to say that Cris, but I dont like this panzer cap either. Maybe the fakers used a very seldom seen maker so that collectors dont have much to compare.

[derka]

Thanks Derka & Tim,

all fakes ?, I guess I am starting to see what Mark was saying. Looks like I was not up to speed on these.

Just goes to prove, never hurts to ask "why" in ones learning curve.

What about the one pictured below ?

Chris

Yes, all fakes.
For the trop LW, not realy my favorite area of interest, so i prefer to say nothing even if i have my own feeling on it.

[90th Light]

Yes, all fakes.
For the trop LW, not realy my favorite area of interest, so i prefer to say nothing even if i have my own feeling on it.

Thanks derka,

I appreciate the reply. Here is where it gets interesting. The two tropical cockades below were declared fakes/ reproductions by advanced collectors in the know.

The LOWER cockade, I have no problem with, fake, fake, fake with the even modern machine woven symmetry to which Mark and OSS have referred. I agree the lower cockade is a modern reproduction.

I argued however, about the UPPER cockade. In my opinion no fake. In fact it is a good original 41/ 42, may be a 42/ 43. The upper cockade is an original,

I wonder if others agree ?

Chris

[90th Light]

In fact it was not until I pulled out some veteran brought back caps with this type of tropical cockade on it that they also agreed. It could in fact be the real deal.

Not only is it a good original, I have lost count of how many times that I have seen this type of tropical cockade on 1942 dated tropical sidecaps made by "Clemans Wagner" found in the "Beehive" cache.

Yet I was told initally it was bad hence why I have become a little cautious about what I am being told,

Chris

[Mark Gibson]

Chris,
The top cockade in post #23 looks to be a good 3rd pattern seen on 42/43 manufactured caps. The lower cockade is definitely one of the 'computerised' machinery examples that have been around for a number of years.
Please accept my apology for offending you with my headbutting post. I just get frustrated when I see obvious reproductions actually being considered as possible originals. The cockades have been around for many years and have been highlighted in a number of threads, but if you haven't seen them how do you know.

Take care

Mark

[90th Light]

Chris,
The top cockade in post #23 looks to be a good 3rd pattern seen on 42/43 manufactured caps. The lower cockade is definitely one of the 'computerised' machinery examples that have been around for a number of years.
Please accept my apology for offending you with my headbutting post. I just get frustrated when I see obvious reproductions actually being considered as possible originals. The cockades have been around for many years and have been highlighted in a number of threads, but if you haven't seen them how do you know.

Take care

Mark

No problem Mark,

it is me who should be apologising to you for being too blunt and direct. I was the one who was not up to speed and thus gained the greatest benefit from what is being discussed and your experience.

Better to find this out before I buy a cap with such a cockade on it. But at the end of the day, that is what is great about being on this forum. You learn and get to share.

The reason I posted the "3rd Pattern" tropical cockade was because it is very close to a couple which derka has shown in post number 19. Hence why those collectors who quickly looked at the cap with the panzer soutache, said bad. Once I showed them the veteran brought back cap, they quickly agreed it was in fact good.

Thanks for posting and I am pleased that I have not upset you,

Chris

[90th Light]

Sorry to say that Cris, but I dont like this panzer cap either. Maybe the fakers used a very seldom seen maker so that collectors dont have much to compare.

Thanks LuckyStrike23,

as you can now see, no argument from me on this one. The cockade would appear to say it all. Although it does make you wonder if they have taken the grommets out of a good cap ?

Chris

[90th Light]

I would also value any opinions on this officer version of the cockade.

Many thanks, Chris

[90th Light]

Shows how puzzling/ confusing this game gets. Here is a tropical cockade on Bill Shea's site that has the white of the roundal larger than the black. Plus it looks to be an even shape in this image. Yet I do not think there is any reason to doubt it.

In fact looking at these two, I can clearly see the difference. On the fake, not only is the white larger than the black it is also larger than the red. On the original tropical cockade, the white and red are about the same size in proportion to each other but the black is smaller,

Chris

[90th Light]

Close up of the original in post number 29, showing a smaller area of black. Note also the slightly uneven weave in the close image when compared with the smaller image in post number 29,

Chris