Heer black Pz sidecap

[derka]

In connection with another thread's discussion about the use of black lining and white ink stamps and date appliation inside black clothes panzer items, what are your thoughts about this one, actualy offered for sale here :

http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/133h4.html

I just put few pics, focused on black the lining point, to keep interest to this subject when the link will be over.









derka

[OSS]

As a general rule, I do not expect to see black linings in Heer caps. Having said that, I have, on rare occasions, seen unquestionable originals with black linings; this is not (IMO) one of them. Is that even an original cockade?

[pauke]

cap

This cap looks so new it could be 5th Reich.

[NickG]

Yeah that hat was made very very recently...

[Mark Gibson]

A very modern fake cockade machine sewn makes the whole cap very questionable. The grommets are quite interesting because from the pic here they look okay.

Mark

[90th Light]

Here is the cockade compared with the 4 different versions of panzer cockade from 1939 to 1943,

Chris

[90th Light]

I would like to see a close up of the cockade which started this thread. Here are close ups of the four models of panzer cockades to compare with. I have identified each model.


Top image;


Left = 1939/ 1940 version for panzer

Right = 1941/ 1942 version for panzer


Bottom image;

Left = 1940 version for panzer

Right = 1942/ 1943 version for panzer


Chris

[derka]

Chris,

I can only put this one avaible on the seller's site :

[90th Light]

[QUOTE=derka;5823118]Chris,

I can only put this one avaible on the seller's site :


Thanks derka,

the more I look at it and compare it with the images that I have posted, the more I think it might in fact have a chance of being an original panzer cockade but the later type 41-42 or 42-43 ?

Intriguing black panzer cap in more ways than one,

Chris

[Mark Gibson]

I think it might infact have a chance of being an original panzer cockade but the later type 41-42 or 42-43 ?

Chris

You are kidding aren't you?
Please tell me that you are kidding .

[90th Light]

You are kidding aren't you?
Please tell me that you are kidding .

Well instead of banging on Mark show me a close up of such a fake

If you over lay the weave pattern of the original 41/ 42 cockade, it matches. The backing cloth, although hard to see in the image from the web site is very close to the 41/ 42 panzer cockade that I have shown.

So what is your point or where are your images, I am only too happy to learn if you have something tangible to share ???

Chris

[Mark Gibson]

Do a search of google for panzer cockade and look at the images, you will find plenty of this type for sale at businesses such as Epic Militaria and At the Front.
Note the extremely sharp edges of the "bullseye", this is typical of modern reproductions on modern 'computerised' machinery. It is a perfect circle.

Mark

[90th Light]

Do a search of google for panzer cockade and look at the images, you will find plenty of this type for sale at businesses such as Epic Militaria and At the Front.
Note the extremely sharp edges of the "bullseye", this is typical of modern reproductions on modern 'computerised' machinery. It is a perfect circle.

Mark

No I will leave it up to you Mark, to post what you find on sites such as "Epic Militaria" and "At the Front"

In the meantime, here are some more originals to compare with;


Top Image:

A seperate panzer cockade taken off a panzer M43 cap in Italy in 1945. This is compared with a 41/ 42 black panzer cockade and a 41/ 42 tropical cockade. Note the course weave of the panzer M43 cap cockade. Possiably the last model made before the traps.

Bottom Image:

A seperate tropical cockade taken off a billed tropical M40 cap. This is compared with a 41/ 42 tropical cockade and a 42/ 43 panzer cockade.


As I have already stated, I would like to see a close up of the panzer cockade on the cap which started this thread because it does not match any fake I have seen but it has a chance of being an original close to the ones I have shown,

Chris

[OSS]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear on my earlier post; the subject cap is an obvious reproduction, I have no comment on the comparative examples offered in it's defense.

[90th Light]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear on my earlier post; the subject cap is an obvious reproduction, I have no comment on the comparative examples offered in it's defense.

Hello OSS,

I not arguing the cap and accept your call/ experience. This is a rare maker and I have only ever seen two caps made by them (dated 1940 & 41). Neither had a black lining. Plus the seller has more than one questionable cap on their site to say the least.


What I am countering is the panzer cockade being written off as a "very modern fake" I would be very surprised if we could get a close up of the cockade, if it was not a close match to one of the examples which I have posted an example of.

If we are going to make the call that the cockade is a fake then lets see the comparative example that call has been based upon. Other-wise the advise and opinions given here become misleading in more ways than one,

Chris