Originally posted by 90th Light
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Mark
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The fact is that they just aren't as desirable to many collectors as the early model cap. Ask any collector what they would prefer. You can talk them up as much as you like Chris but it won't change what is more desirable.
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Hello Mark,Originally posted by MarkG View Post
What I am interested in is the real history of an item, end of story.
If these "Kern" caps saw use in Afrika from El Alamein onwards then that is good enough for me. If they saw the brutal battles of Italy in WW2 icons like the Panther tank then that is good enough for me.
What I am NOT interested in is "coin collecting", "high school popularity contests", "investor mentality" and "snob value"
If I am talking up history because it is real history then so be it. May be not enough is known about these by collectors today and thus no publicity given is bad publicity so I thank you for your input into that process,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 02-09-2013, 04:16 PM.Comment
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Interesting thread. There is no doubt 2nd model caps made it to Afrika. Kern included. Agree Alamein would be a place to start.
Chris those are great photos. Some time back you mentioned that you might start a thread on tropical caps and tunics worn in Russia. Perhaps you could start one but with a broader picture. Tropical caps and tunics worn in not only Russia but Europe in general ? Include Italy and the Med as well as Russia, Ukraine. Would prove very interesting to many here.
MarkG is right about value placed on these caps by collectors. But some collectors care more about the items and others more about the history....
to each his own
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[QUOTE=Tim OK;5736240]
Chris those are great photos. Some time back you mentioned that you might start a thread on tropical caps and tunics worn in Russia. Perhaps you could start one but with a broader picture. Tropical caps and tunics worn in not only Russia but Europe in general ? Include Italy and the Med as well as Russia, Ukraine. Would prove very interesting to many here.
Good idea Tim,
recent publications on the subject are offering an increasing wealth of new data as the two images below prove.
Have a look at these two guys in tropical uniforms but not in Afrika. Especially take note the shoulder boards that the soldier in the first image is wearing. What are they ???
and I love his black patent lace up shoes showing under the long tropical trousers. The second soldier's riding boots are also worth noting.
The first guy looks like something from a Charlie Chaplin movie,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 02-09-2013, 09:05 PM.Comment
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Then there are the naughty ones who were wearing 1st model tropical tunics in 1944 with continental insignia and leather equipment. How often does one ever see today, a 1st model tropical tunics with its original continental insignia still attached ???
Every time you see a 1st model tropical tunic, it is always declared as being the real Afrika deal. I wonder how many of these are now floating around with tropical insignia reapplied and being represented for good money as god knows what ???
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 02-09-2013, 09:08 PM.Comment
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Chris,Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
I'm also interested in the "real" history of items and I learned a valuable piece of information from you in this thread, the fact that caps by this maker were noted as being seen at El Alamein. A great piece of information.
MarkLast edited by Mark Gibson; 02-09-2013, 09:44 PM.Comment
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The officers also seemed to have still liked wearing the 1st model tropical tunics.
It is worth noting however, that this officer has not been able to get himself an officers tropical billed M40 with silver piping. I wonder if by 1944, they just could not be obtained ???
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 02-09-2013, 09:44 PM.Comment
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Although one sees the occasional shot of troops on the Eastern Front wearing elements of tropical clothing, I am not sure it was widespread with many soldiers in warmer areas making do with HBT uniforms. One certainly sees German troops in the southernmost sectors (ie. Sevastopol) wearing continental uniforms. Tropical uniform was certainly worn in other (mostly garrison) areas like Crete, Rhodes, mainland Greece etc. At any rate, tropical uniform was issued in (Southern) Italy. Here is a typical uniform mix:Comment
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That is the typical mix that I've seen in many photos of troops wearing tropical items in areas other than North Africa. One thing to note is that most of these troops wear continental boots, not tropical.Originally posted by OSS View Post
I was offered a photo album of Gebirgsjager in Southern Russia all wearing wearing 1st pattern tropical tunics and breaches with continental bergmutze and mountain boots (leg wrappings with the breaches). It was interesting to see but not my area of interest North Africa.
Chris,
I have many photos of officers in North Africa wearing em's caps as well. I would put this down to being a supply problem, especially in Africa.
MarkComment
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Another with low shoes:Comment
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Another typical image:Comment
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Hello Mark,Originally posted by MarkG View Post
nothing "WTF" about this statement either;
"If they saw the brutal battles of Italy in WW2 icons like the Panther tank then that is good enough for me."
At the end of the day, these are all German tropical uniforms and they were worn on more than one front in the period 1941 to 1945.
Personally, the one which I think is completely underated is the "Brandenburgers" supported by leading element of the "22. Luftlande-Division (Trop)" in "Leros, the Verdun of the Aegean"
They then went on to smash up the LRDG so badly that it never again engaged as a coherent unit. All the members of the "Brandenburgers" and "22. Luftlande-Division(Trop)" at that time were wearing tropical unforms (ie 1st, 2nd & 3rd model tropical tunics, first and second model tropical caps).
JR65 of 22LL(Trop) was one of the first units outfitted as tropical after the first priority supply of units for Afrika. They however, never fought in Afrika. They were the part of the garrison on Kreta and fought extensively at Leros. Yet their uniforms and caps are being sold today as Afrikakorps and all that goes with such misinformation,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 02-09-2013, 10:36 PM.Comment
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Hello again Mark,Originally posted by MarkG View Post
the supply problem in Africa I can understand. The Allies basically cut them off and were nailing the supply ships left, right and center.
Italy is different however, because it could be supplied more than one way (land, rail, air & sea) with a main German controlled rail route coming down through Austria plus other routes.
For some reason worthy of further investigation, the supply of officer tropical billed M40's seems to have come to an end in 1943.
But who knows, may be this thread might drag a "1944 dated" example out of the woodwork or even an "RB only" marked example.
In its own way this is turning out to be an interesting thread and I thank OSS for adding more images to the mix,
ChrisComment
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"Desirable" is a matter of perspective and collecting interest/focus, as has been pointed out before.
I have seen - and personally know of - later manufactured m40 caps selling for more than soutached examples because of their provenance being other than Africa, in one case specifically an offer on one cap due to it's Italian campaign history. That cap was 'desired' above any from Africa as Italy is the specific area of interest of that collector. He wouldn't glance at a cap that came from Africa...
Good points, Chris.
Mark
New Zealand.Comment
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Here is an interesting group shot. You will note that the figures are wearing first pattern tropical tunics (as are several in the preceding images). You have to wonder that if one of these tunics were encountered today would it be presumed to have come from the N. African theater:Comment
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