Südfront Offziers Einheitsfeldmütze Ok ?

[utensi]

Hello
das kommt bei google translate raus =
stimme ein Blick Killer-cap Können Sie die Ösen zu schließen up? Sieht aus wie die Scheiben sind auf rückwärts, eine Marke mit diesem Hersteller

[afrikasandman]

Its a one looker original large size Kern. Seems like the vast majority of officer caps are produced by Kern and are larger sized. Great score sir! Matt

[OSS]

Seems like the vast majority of officer caps are produced by Kern and are larger sized. Matt

I respectfully disagree with this statement.

[utensi]

I respectfully disagree with this statement.

???

[ErichK]

I respectfully disagree with this statement.

Alles in ordnung mit seiner feldmutze, einvanfrei! OSS meint nur das die grosse 61 ist nicht so oft gesehen wie Matt hat geschreiben, macht dir keine sorgen.

[OSS]

It is not the size of the cap in the statement with which I disagree, but rather that the "vast majority" of officers caps encountered were manufactured by Bruno Kern. I would be very surprised if one would have encountered any Bruno Kern caps in Libya or Egypt, and I have never seen or heard of a Kern officer's cap with soutache. These caps were manufactured after soutaches were discontinued and while some may have appeared in Tunisia, the "vast majority" would have been worn outside the N. African theatre (ie. Italy, Greece, etc.)IMO. I apologize to the owner, who may have thought I didn't like his cap; it is a very nice example of, as he said, a "Sudfront" cap, rare and desirable.

[afrikasandman]

It is not the size of the cap in the statement with which I disagree, but rather that the "vast majority" of officers caps encountered were manufactured by Bruno Kern. I would be very surprised if one would have encountered any Bruno Kern caps in Libya or Egypt, and I have never seen or heard of a Kern officer's cap with soutache. These caps were manufactured after soutaches were discontinued and while some may have appeared in Tunisia, the "vast majority" would have been worn outside the N. African theatre (ie. Italy, Greece, etc.)IMO. I apologize to the owner, who may have thought I didn't like his cap; it is a very nice example of, as he said, a "Sudfront" cap, rare and desirable.

Ramsey,

there is no place in my quote that states these were worn in Afrika. I am simply stating that if you look around the majority of officer caps that you see for sale are all Kerns. Mike Davis has one and its a Kern, the one sold by SScrooge was a small size Kern but still a Kern none the less (picked up in Italy or so the story goes), this one is a Kern.... So I guess let me refine my statement, the majority of the ones for sale on the public market (Officer tropical caps) are Kerns and I never said they were worn in Afrika. I would venture as far as to say that many of Kern officer caps if worn came from Italy and southern Russia (I have never seen a 1st model Officer Kern cap, not saying they don't exist but I have never seen one that I can remember).
If you are talking about Tropical M40 officer caps that saw action in Afrika that is a whole nother story and I didn't make that statement. Those officer caps that were worn there were likely all produced by the makers of the 1st model caps (Halfars, Lubenstein, Frankensteins etc). They are much harder to find than the 2nd model officer caps as well and and demand a much greater price than one of these. Matt

[OSS]

Ramsey,

there is no place in my quote that states these were worn in Afrika. I am simply stating that if you look around the majority of officer caps that you see for sale are all Kerns. Mike Davis has one and its a Kern, the one sold by SScrooge was a small size Kern but still a Kern none the less (picked up in Italy or so the story goes), this one is a Kern.... So I guess let me refine my statement, the majority of the ones for sale on the public market (Officer tropical caps) are Kerns and I never said they were worn in Afrika. I would venture as far as to say that many of Kern officer caps if worn came from Italy and southern Russia (I have never seen a 1st model Officer Kern cap, not saying they don't exist but I have never seen one that I can remember).
If you are talking about Tropical M40 officer caps that saw action in Afrika that is a whole nother story and I didn't make that statement. Those officer caps that were worn there were likely all produced by the makers of the 1st model caps (Halfars, Lubenstein, Frankensteins etc). They are much harder to find than the 2nd model officer caps as well and and demand a much greater price than one of these. Matt

Thank you for clarifying your point Matt, I simply thought for the sake of accuracy, the implication that the vast majority of officer's tropical field caps were manufactured by Bruno Kern needed to be challenged, as it is simply not true (IMO). I should have known that all you meant was that you were aware of several Kerns for sale at the moment. As you know, earlier tropical caps, tunics, and field gear generate more interest and command higher prices than the later production examples because they are either known or presumed to have been used in N. Africa. That is why you are more likely to encounter later field caps (which Kerns are), later tunics (M-43s), etc. on the market than early production pieces. On another note; Karl Halfar and Schlesisches Mutzenfabrik(Frankenstein) did not produce tropical officers caps, to my knowledge.

[afrikasandman]

Yeah I wasn't sure if those companies made officer caps or not, I always assumed they must have since they produced the EM caps but its quite possible they never did. Agree that the Kerns are later but still very nice. Matt

[90th Light]

The second model officer tropical billed M40 made by the company of Kern could have been worn in Afrika from at least September 1942 onwards. When the New Zealand Division over-ran the Headquarters unit of JR 125 of 164 Light division it was noted by New Zealand intelligence and passed on to the British high command that "Kern" was a manufacturer of uniform items.

Other reasons why the "Kern" officer model is likely to be 1942 & early 1943;

1/ the use of the first model tropical cockade. Every other example of officer tropical billed M40's by this maker seen in collections in the world today have a first model cockade applied. The one which started this thread is the first officer example observed with a later (2nd/ 3rd model tropical cockade) on it. One can only speculate why.

2/ also 1/ above combined with the absence of any form of RB number implies 42 production. How many tropical caps made in 1943 have a makers name and address only ? One certainly sees a makers name and an RB number in some early 1943 made caps but a makers name only is usually always 1942 production or earlier.

There is a strong case that the manufacture of the tropical officer billed M40 may no longer have been happening from some time in the second half of 1943 onwards. Collectors have not found many second model officer tropical billed M40 caps with RB or RF numbers in them, if any ??? . To say that such a cap is very rare would be an under-statement. In fact all second model officer tropical billed M40's are rare. There are simply less of them when compared to the numbers of first models still in existance today. Granted they are not as popular with the current emphasis of 1940/ 41 production being the real "Afrikakorps" as opposed to "Army Afrika" 1942/43 but that aside, where are they in collections today ???

Certainly the caps made by Kern were also worn in Italy 1943-45 but again they are not seen in high numbers. If one makes a study of photos of German officers wearing a tropical billed M40 cap in Italy 43 to 45. One often observes the EM/ NCO type being worn by many officers. This is probably due to a lack of such caps from the second half of 1943 onwards.

It would thus stand to reason that the tropical officer billed M40 made by Kern could also have been worn on other tropical fronts such as Greece & Southern Russia if supplies of such a cap were available at the time,

Chris

[OSS]

The second model officer tropical billed M40 made by the company of Kern could have been worn in Afrika from at least September 1942 onwards. When the New Zealand Division over-ran the Headquarters unit of JR 125 of 164 Light division it was noted by New Zealand intelligence and passed on to the British high command that "Kern" was a manufacturer of uniform items.

Other reasons why the "Kern" officer model is likely to be 1942 & early 1943;

1/ the use of the first model tropical cockade. Every other example of officer tropical billed M40's by this maker seen in collections in the world today have a first model cockade applied. The one which started this thread is the first officer example observed with a later (2nd/ 3rd model tropical cockade) on it. One can only speculate why.

2/ also 1/ above combined with the absence of any form of RB number implies 42 production. How many tropical caps made in 1943 have a makers name and address only ? One certainly sees a makers name and an RB number in some early 1943 made caps but a makers name only is usually always 1942 production or earlier.

There is a strong case that the manufacture of the tropical officer billed M40 may no longer have been happening from some time in the second half of 1943 onwards. Collectors have not found many second model officer tropical billed M40 caps with RB or RF numbers in them, if any ??? . To say that such a cap is very rare would be an under-statement. In fact all second model officer tropical billed M40's are rare. There are simply less of them when compared to the numbers of first models still in existance today. Granted they are not as popular with the current emphasis of 1940/ 41 production being the real "Afrikakorps" as opposed to "Army Afrika" 1942/43 but that aside, where are they in collections today ???

Certainly the caps made by Kern were also worn in Italy 1943-45 but again they are not seen in high numbers. If one makes a study of photos of German officers wearing a tropical billed M40 cap in Italy 43 to 45. One often observes the EM/ NCO type being worn by many officers. This is probably due to a lack of such caps from the second half of 1943 onwards.

It would thus stand to reason that the tropical officer billed M40 made by Kern could also have been worn on other tropical fronts such as Greece & Southern Russia if supplies of such a cap were available at the time,

Chris

There is no doubt these later pattern officer's caps saw service in N.Africa, most likely in the post- El Alamein period. One thing that is unusual about these Kern caps is that they don't display a year of manufacture which tropical caps generally did, but the sweatband and lack of soutache indicates manufacture after the middle of '42. At any rate these caps are rare and wonderful, and even if only worn in Italy, wasn't Italy the scene of some of the bloodiest and most heroic fighting of WWII ? I think these caps are greatly underappreciated.

[NZMark]

There is no doubt these later pattern officer's caps saw service in N.Africa, most likely in the post- El Alamein period. One thing that is unusual about these Kern caps is that they don't display a year of manufacture which tropical caps generally did, but the sweatband and lack of soutache indicates manufacture after the middle of '42. At any rate these caps are rare and wonderful, and even if only worn in Italy, wasn't Italy the scene of some of the bloodiest and most heroic fighting of WWII ? I think these caps are greatly underappreciated.

Couldn't agree more.
Regards,
Mark
New Zealand

[90th Light]

There is no doubt these later pattern officer's caps saw service in N.Africa, most likely in the post- El Alamein period. One thing that is unusual about these Kern caps is that they don't display a year of manufacture which tropical caps generally did, but the sweatband and lack of soutache indicates manufacture after the middle of '42. At any rate these caps are rare and wonderful, and even if only worn in Italy, wasn't Italy the scene of some of the bloodiest and most heroic fighting of WWII ? I think these caps are greatly underappreciated.

Hello OSS,

yes I agree totally and in my opinion the Italian campaign of 1943 to 1945 is also underappreciated when compared to the interest that there is today in North Africa.

The variety and range of German units and uniforms, fighting/ serving in Italy 43/45 is probably the highest of any front that the Germans fought on in WW2. Equally the number and combination of Allied units fighting there is also just as interesting. The more one studies this front the more interesting it becomes.

Returning to the discussion about the second model tropical billed M40's made by "Kern". Some of these caps are in fact dated 1942 as the image below confirms. How early in 1942 is anyone's guess but they could possibly be the first of the second model billed M40's to be issued. 2NZEF noted their existance in September 1942 so it would be interesting to know when 164 Light Division was first issued them before being sent to Africa. JR 125 were in the process of being changed from a Motorised Infantry Regiment to a Panzer Grenadier Regiment so may be the issue of the caps made by Kern were part of the change from white soutache to green soutache or no soutache as per the new orders ???

Chris

[Mark Gibson]

The majority of officer caps that you see for sale are all Kerns. Matt

I agree with this statement Matt. They just aren't as desirable as earlier caps as has been evidenced by the fact that they don't sell as quickly (or for as much). I know of a few early caps offered for sale privately and they are very quickly snapped.
As for the cap which started the thread, it is a very nice example but I personally prefer earlier examples because I prefer to collect very early tropical items.

Mark

[90th Light]

Anything that was at the the battle of El Alamein is desirable in any collector of "Afrikakorps" or "Afrika" book. Does not matter if one collects early Afrika 41/42 or later Afrika 42/43, El Alamein is where the tide turned and is thus the pinnacle battle of Afrika. The reality is that some soldiers of the newly arrived 164 Light division in Afrika were wearing caps made by "Kern". One can not get any more Afrika than that. In fact I will dig out some images of use of such caps being worn by officers in Afrika and post them here

In the mean time and to add to the mix, my favourite picture of second model billed tropical officer M40 in use, is the well known Panther commander wearing such a cap in his tank in Italy in 1944. Show me a more impressive photo of the real history of WW2 ( Afrika, Italy, Europe or Russia) than this tropical German officer cap represents with this Panther tank ???

Other images from this sequence of film show a briefing of officers from the various zugs from this Panther unit. Note how the Panther commander in the first image is the only officer wearing a silver piped officer second model tropical billed M40. The other officers are wearing either the silver piped officer black M38 sidecap cap or EM/ NCO tropical billed M40 caps. Testimony in itself as to how the silver piped officer tropical billed M40 had become hard to get by 1944.

The fact that there is more than one second model officer tropical billed M40 on the market at the moment is certainly not due to an over abundance of this model of cap. In fact it is quite the opposite. A rarely seen buying opportunity. It will be interesting in 5 years time to hear what we will be saying and if some reflect that they should have grabbed one while they had the chance. Time will tell,

Chris