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**stonemint** · 10-15-2012, 11:24 AM

Is that Richard P's collection?

**realone** · 10-15-2012, 11:25 AM

Hi Glenn, isnt this site a sponsor here on the WAF?

Greg

**leib grenadier** · 10-15-2012, 12:04 PM

That is a very broad brushed statement Glenn, and a little irresponsible don't you think? Given that you have not personally touched a single piece of his collection. I see that Richard is still a political hot button, even in death.

**90th Light** · 10-15-2012, 05:07 PM

I think there is always a danger when one speaks ill of the dead. Not something to mess with in my opinion.

In all fairness to Richard both in life and death, it has not been proved beyond doubt that all these caps are bad or fake.

I looked carefully at them last night and have to be honest and say that some did not take my fancy. There were certain points that were questionable to say the least.

What this confirmed for me however, is that they were not "one lookers" and not what I have encountered from beyond doubt sources. It does not confirm 100% that all are bad/ fake. More investigation is needed before one can conclude.

The tailor made caps were the most intriguing and more than one could be correct and of pre-May 45 manufacture. Show me who has the experience/ examples to be able to make the a final deciding call. When it comes to tailor made German sidecaps (officer & ranks), it depends on what each individual collector has seen/ experienced. No two are ever alike even from the same tailor, because they were made to each customers specifications and wallet at the time.

I agree that a panzer generals black sidecap is a very rare find based on the law of probability alone, but low probabilities does not mean that there are not any to be found. Such a cap would be very appealing to an allied soldier in 1945 if he had the chance to get his hands on it to bring home.

The tailor made example which was the most interesting in my opinion, was the pink piped EM/ NCO one. I think the more one studied period images then the more one might find a tailor made example like that being worn.

On the other hand, I do not know what to make of the signal soutached examples but would probably not buy them for my collection.

The point I am making, I do not know if anyone can just come out and say with certainity that all the caps are bad/ fake. On this forum there has been no where near the level of discussion about black panzer caps that there has been about panzer wraps ( did even the wrap discussions come to a final overall concensus that all were in agreement with or was the forum clearly devided on the decision ???

) . In the discussions that there have been, it comes down to what each collector has seen or handled and the tolerance level of what they will or will not spend their money on.

Richard had his reasons as to why he had added these caps to his collection. It would be interesting to have heard his take on each and the ones he liked the most. I make this posting, to add balance to this thread and a respect for Richard who would always take the time to post/ share his experience with us. We may not always have agreed with him but we will all miss him. He added greatly to what we collect if for no other reason than the level of debate which now still continues in his unavoidable absence,

Chris

**panzer nco** · 10-15-2012, 05:22 PM

I do agree with Glenn, I dont like any of the pieces either, Most are in Mint condition & certaintly dont look original to me.

To Bruce's credit i see that he has just retracted the newly listed Panzer related pieces, & just goes to show & this should stand as an example that if you are advertising known fakes you will more than likely be caught out !!!!

Mike..

**BenVK** · 10-15-2012, 05:49 PM

I'm too angry to post on the other thread. Some of the comments made me feel physically sick.

I also don't know enough about tunics to judge so I'll just talk about the caps.

I think Glenn did the right thing by bringing the sale to our attention.
The next right thing to do would have been to look at each cap in turn and in detail so that everyone could discuss them and make up their own minds.

That's how this forum works isn't it or did I miss something?

Unfortunately that's never going to happen now though is it.
I don't know how many items were in Richards collection but it must be a lot more than we just saw for sale. I doubt the rest will get a fair hearing now however because the collection has just been written off and his reputation ridiculed by a few individuals who didn't get along with him.

It's shameful really and I just feel very sorry for the family.

**Luca Ongaro** · 10-15-2012, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by BenVK View Post

I don't know how many items were in Richards collection but it must be a lot more than we just saw for sale. I doubt the rest will get a fair hearing now however because the collection has just been written off and his reputation ridiculed by a few individuals who didn't get along with him.

It's shameful really and I just feel very sorry for the family.

Well, without pictures anymore let me say AMEN, it's time to close this useless thread.

**Leroy** · 10-15-2012, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Richard had his reasons as to why he had added these caps to his collection. It would be interesting to have heard his take on each and the ones he liked the most. I make this posting, to add balance to this thread and a respect for Richard who would always take the time to post/ share his experience with us. We may not always have agreed with him but we will all miss him. He added greatly to what we collect if for no other reason than the level of debate which now still continues in his unavoidable absence.

Chris

I only had the pleasure of knowing Richard for two years and actually met him in person, I believe, for the first time at the 2011 SOS. I say "I believe" because I may have met him many years ago at the old Great Western show in California. He was a true legend in the aviation community there and there was no one more respected in that field (and that included his very real, and very detailed, knowledge of period uniform construction). His AVG collection, amassed over many years, is the envy of museums around the world.

Richard was very candid about his German collection and told me many times that he KNEW that there would be people who would doubt some of his pieces, but that if he had the chance to explain what there was about a particular piece which compelled him to buy it, he thought many would understand and change their views. He also freely acknowledged that there were some things he may have made a mistake about, and if someone who didn't like something had proveably valid criticism, he would yield and honestly acknowledge his error. He knew full well that the more exotic an item was, the more likely it was to draw criticism.

Unfortunately, he is gone now and we will never have the chance to hear his views on these pieces. Instead, we see a condemnation of his entire collection, which was vastly larger than the few exotic pieces picked for sale by the experienced dealer (pieces which, he has said today, were personally "vetted" by other, experienced collectors who he knew, before he advertised them).

I have seen a lot of unfortunate things here, but (like BenVK) some of the comments made have made me physically sick and repulsed me.

True colors....true colors.

**derka** · 10-16-2012, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by Luca Ongaro View Post

Well, without pictures anymore let me say AMEN, it's time to close this useless thread.

Luca,
member "Achtung" was kind enought to put pics there :
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=627182&page=4

Leroy, i may missed something, but i didn't see any condemnation of the entire collection of Richard, only strong doubts expressed about the 16 items' originality offered for sale on Grenadier site.

each of us can make his own opinion about that, using our brain.

derka

**Leroy** · 10-16-2012, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by derka View Post

Leroy, i may missed something, but i didn't see any condemnation of the entire collection of Richard, only strong doubts expressed about the 16 items' originality offered for sale on Grenadier site.

derka

Derka - There are comments now deleted which clearly implied that these items were indicative, and representative, of his collecting abilities in general. One comment, still on this site, says "this was expected after his invalid claims and theories through out several discussions here". I don't know how you read it, but that's the way I read it.

I have no problem with items being carefully discussed, nor any problem with someone posting them here for discussion. But that's what I would like to see...a careful discussion of the items. Not the owner. Especially when that owner is no longer here to give his own views.

**OSS** · 10-16-2012, 09:54 AM

I am sorry to hear that several of the contributors to this thread have become physically ill by the discussion here. I suppose one could also be sickened by some of the sanctimonious statements and by the suggestion that these articles are simply misunderstood and can somehow be explained. I have no concrete evidence or knowledge as to whom these items belong and consequently have made no reference to their owner. I believe Glenn has done a public service by expressing alarm at the wholesale marketing of what he believes to be counterfeit items. I share in his belief that these pictured pieces are reproductions.

**Ian Hulley** · 10-16-2012, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by OSS View Post

I believe Glenn has done a public service by expressing alarm at the wholesale marketing of what he believes to be counterfeit items. I share in his belief that these pictured pieces are reproductions.

I don't think that was the issue with any of us who expressed concerns, There are a good many posts which have been removed, viewing it in it's entirety may have given you a better impression of the reasons for concern.

I am all for exposing fakes but the tone became something completely different, tactlessly implied attacks on a much-respected member sadly no longer here to defend himself.

Kind regards, Ian.

**OSS** · 10-16-2012, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Ian Hulley View Post

I don't think that was the issue with any of us who expressed concerns, There are a good many posts which have been removed, viewing it in it's entirety may have given you a better impression of the reasons for concern.

I am all for exposing fakes but the tone became something completely different, tactlessly implied attacks on a much-respected member sadly no longer here to defend himself.

Kind regards, Ian.

If these items are indeed from the Richard P. collection (as many suppose), then his reputation as a knowledgeable collector is likely to be somewhat tarnished. This is unfortunate yet unavoidable, as it appears many pieces in his collection which he believed to be genuine are obvious fakes IMO. If your respect was based in part on his ability to distinguish genuine articles from fraudulent ones, perhaps that could suffer as well.

**B. N. Singer** · 10-16-2012, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Leroy View Post

...but (like BenVK) some of the comments made have made me physically sick and repulsed me.

T

In that case Sir, me thinks you would have been in need of hospitalization had you the misfortune of purchasing one of the items featured by this (or the uniform) thread.

Further, if there exists any notion that I made “ tactlessly implied attacks on a much-respected member” it is pure balder-dash and poppy cock!

My post(s) in the uniform thread and here are focused SOLEY toward the items questioned, which IMO are several steps above costume quality.

Nothing to do with the owner personally or other items that he might have also owned.

However, I believe it would be fair to say that were a number of items from My Personal collection offered on a dealer’s site, and were in turn viewed with such gross reservation by knowledgeable forum members, there would be certain conclusions drawn, regardless of my state of existence and deservedly so.

B. N. Singer

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