Wagner M40 Tropical cap

[90th Light]

The grommet is magnetic with a brass/ gold plating ( a form of tin used by German toy manufacturers of the time ) which is then painted field-grey on the exterior and inserted through a zinc washer on the inside of the cap. Such a grommet is certainly possible.

You see them with a matching magnetic washer used often in M34 sidecaps before 1939 and a larger un-plated, plain version used in tropical M40's from the later half of 1942 onwards esp in the KM tropical M42's.

What is unusual about this grommet but again not impossible. Is the mix of parts i.e. magnetic tin sheet grommet with a zinc backing washer and the use of such a combination in a tropical M40 cap dated 1941 ( one predominantly sees the use of all zinc grommets & zinc washers in the 1940/41 time frame ),

Chris

[90th Light]

OK, well if things are different from the 1940 dated CW tropical M40's. Lets add some images that Ben put up some time ago so we can compare,

Chris

[90th Light]

OK 2, well if things are different from the 1940 dated CW tropical M40's. Lets add some images that Ben put up some time ago so we can compare,

Chris

[90th Light]

OK 3, well if things are different from the 1940 dated CW tropical M40's. Lets add some images that Ben put up some time ago so we can compare,

Chris

[90th Light]

A part from the application of the soutache ( at the bottom of the cap near the bill ) and the strength of the stamping ( maker mark/ size/ date ). What is different between the 1941 dated example and this 1940 dated example in posts 17 to 19.

The two look to be the same pattern, cut, style and sew up ???

Same steel/ tin grommet through a zinc washer ???

Same font to the maker stamp, size and date ???

Same type of lining material ???

Same cockade ???

I am not saying anyone is wrong. I am just asking, if someone could please point out the differences between a 1940 dated CW tropical M40 and the 1941 dated example which started this thread.

Many thanks,

Chris

[Mark Gibson]

A part from the application of the soutache ( at the bottom of the cap near the bill ) and the strength of the stamping ( maker mark/ size/ date ). What is different between the 1941 dated example and this 1940 dated example in posts 17 to 19.

The two look to be the same pattern, cut, style and sew up ???

Same steel/ tin grommet through a zinc washer ???

Same font to the maker stamp, size and date ???

Same type of lining material ???

Same cockade ???

I am not saying anyone is wrong. I am just asking, if someone could please point out the differences between a 1940 dated CW tropical M40 and the 1941 dated example which started this thread.

Many thanks,

Chris

Chris,
I spent a great deal of time comparing these two caps (and another very questionable CW M40) and there are some significant differences including the maker markings, lining material, twill for the body and of course the soutache application. The reason that I have asked for other pics if Harry can manage to get the is because I wanted to compare the whole cut/shape of the cap to these other questionable CW caps.

Ben,
I find the corrosion around the grommets to be quite unsual, which is why I've questioned if there may have been an attempt at cleaning (or something else). The eagle looks to have been reapplied.

Mark

[msteve21]

Photos

I did some comparison photos which highlight different soutachde application and possibly material. Eylets also appear to be the same.
Mark S

[msteve21]

Stamps

For comparsion

[Tim O'Keefe]

Here we go again. At least one of these CW M40's as been in only three very experienced DAK collectors since the early '70's. There is also a '42 dated example of the CW M40 in a very experienced DAK collection. This one looks good to me and the eagle application does jump out at me

Here is the thread that Mark mentions.

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthread.php?t=467580

Ben makes a good point on stamps also.
"Ink stamps are something that I've chosen to ignore to a large degree. Handled too many IMO, authentic caps that have got the thumbs down on forums based on stamps that others didn't like for reasons that are never fully explained or proven. "

[Tim O'Keefe]

Just building on my previous post,

On the "negative side", compare the font of the size 60 in the CW example with font of the size 60 in the WS officer example. They are the same. This is not the style of font seen in CW tropical sidecaps from the time. The CW tropical sidecaps show the use of a completely different set of stamps for sizing.

Also the square box stamp of the CW maker mark seems to be the same dimensions as the WS officer MM stamp. Have these 2 been made by the same stamp maker ???
!

Little more info on the CW maker.
The Collector's Guide to Cloth Third Reich Military Headgear by Gary Wilkins has a lot of information on Clemens Wagner including several ads of theirs which detail the fact that Hamburg was their "branch factory" and Braunschweig was their main factory. "Betriebsleitung nur Braunschweig" in that four line stamp means "Administration only at Braunschweig." Some of the CW tropical sidecaps are stamped with an oval that only lists Braunschweig on the lower line inside the oval including one Wilkins shows that is dated 1943. They were using it in 1940, on SS wool sidecaps, but I've seen this same stamp in another cap.

Found a photo on the Any DAK Items thread. It is of a Clemens Wagner tropical sidecap belonging to our member Raymond with the stamp with an oval that only lists Braunschweig on the lower line inside the oval....Different stamps, Different factorys, same maker. The "standard" CW stamp in tropical sidecaps is with both "Hamburg-Braunschweig" inside an oval from the Hamburg site, widely excepted by all. The caps with just the Braunschweig in the oval have been labeled fakes by some but doubt this is correct.

Post # 762 - #764 Cap is Dated October '42

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...213638&page=51

Here is member Galizien41's Continental sidecap dated either '38 or '39. Post #2

[http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthread.php?t=471628

The four line version can also be found on the CW tropenhelms too. So we have two CW factorys both putting out tropical headgear using different stamps.

[Mark Gibson]

1940 dated Clemens Wagner stamp.
An example of the abundance of Clemens Wagner stamps out there.

Mark