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**90th Light** · 06-29-2012, 11:01 PM

Now, I did not find an example of a zig-zag stitch application of the badge on an black Pz. M43. But I did find a very interesting case study of a zig-zag application of the eagle on a black Pz. M34 cap made by "Karl Kubach" followed by a hand application of the eagle on a black Pz. M34 also made by "Karl Kubach".

These two Pz. M34's were also accepted as 101% original and were sold on "Mike Davis, Virtual Grenadier" site,

( Inside of the Karl Kubach Pz. cap with hand applied eagle )

Chris

Attached Files

Karl Kubach non zig zag 2.JPG (86.5 KB, 312 views)

**90th Light** · 06-29-2012, 11:08 PM

Now the feeling was, that the Karl Kubach black Pz. M34 cap with hand applied eagle on Mike Davis site had a reapplied eagle, post war ???.

In my collection I have however, a very salty example of a field grey M34 sidecap made by "Karl Kubach" with a hand applied eagle.

This cap would be best described as "Salty-salty" and was brought back in 1945 by a local character know as "Gunner Preston". Sadly I do not know if he got it in Italy or Africa. This cap proves however, that "Karl Kubach" did apply badges by hand in this manner,

Chris

Attached Files

Karl Kubach non zig zag 3.JPG (63.7 KB, 357 views)

**90th Light** · 06-29-2012, 11:10 PM

Inside of the field-grey "Salty-salty" example brought back by "Gunner Preston",

Chris

Attached Files

Karl Kubach non zig zag 4.JPG (68.2 KB, 356 views)

**90th Light** · 06-29-2012, 11:17 PM

I will stop there for now. This raises a very interesting question however, about caps made by the same maker. We have one example in post number 28 with a zig-zag applied eagle and another example by the same maker with a hand applied eagle in post number 30. How do we explain this ???

My feeling is, "sub-contracted production" to complete large orders on time ???

I also have found another case of this by another maker, I will not post images of those for now however. It would be too many images at once and thus confusing.

Interesting is it not esp. in terms of Rene's Pz. M43 ?

Chris

**LuckyStrike23** · 06-30-2012, 02:29 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

First up; a maker mark in a black panzer M43 cap with no RB/RF number, maker name and address plus a 1944 date. This cap was accepted 101% on the forum here as an original. "Gerard of Relic Hunters" later sold this cap on his site,

Chris

Our knowledge about the RB-system and how it worked is unfortunately very limited today. It could be that these 2 companies had their own number but didnt stamped this number in their products. In my understanding of the system it doesent matter if this number is visible in a hat or not.

**MarcoPennisi** · 07-02-2012, 04:31 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

caps made by the same maker. We have one example in post number 28 with a zig-zag applied eagle and another example by the same maker with a hand applied eagle in post number 30. How do we explain this ???

My feeling is, "sub-contracted production" to complete large orders on time ???

.... Chris

Subcontracted work sounds plausible but what about different production runs at different times leading to minor differences?
MP

**MarcoPennisi** · 07-02-2012, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by Rene Chavez View Post

...
IMO the stamp looks correct and the stitching should not be used as the major factor in determining the originality of the hat especially when nobody has shown a 1944 Valet hat. .... Rene Chavez
www.foreignvolunteerlegion.com

I concur with Mr. Chavez. Most sensible conclusions.
MP

**MarcoPennisi** · 07-02-2012, 05:02 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

First up; a maker mark in a black panzer M43 cap with no RB/RF number, maker name and address plus a 1944 date. This cap was accepted 101% on the forum here as an original. "Gerard of Relic Hunters" later sold this cap on his site.

(close up of maker mark & date)

Chris

I've inspected several late-war clothing items displaying "LAGO" stamps rather than "RB/RF Nr." markings, hardly surprising. Sure Chris has it as well. It seems that also clothing manufacturing syndicates didn't fall into the area of enforcement of "RB/RF Nr." marking. This may be due to the different legal and bureaucratic status of an industry/company compared with that of a consortium.
Advocates of German accuracy will notice that the LAGO , the size and the year stamps in this specimen are nonaligned.
MP

**Rene Chavez** · 07-02-2012, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

I will stop there for now. This raises a very interesting question however, about caps made by the same maker. We have one example in post number 28 with a zig-zag applied eagle and another example by the same maker with a hand applied eagle in post number 30. How do we explain this ???

My feeling is, "sub-contracted production" to complete large orders on time ???

I also have found another case of this by another maker, I will not post images of those for now however. It would be too many images at once and thus confusing.

Interesting is it not esp. in terms of Rene's Pz. M43 ?

Chris

I also concur that many of these fieldcaps as well as medals, etc were "sub-contracted production" to complete large orders on time. Who is to say in this case that manufacturer’s only stitch in a particular way or has to have an RB number. One thing I emphasize is that each field cap posted in this forum thread has to stand on its own merit IMO how caps were stitched in a particular way shouldn’t be an issue unless the whole cap is an obvious fake.<O

<O

Rene Chavez<O

www.foreignvolunteerlegion.com<O

</O

**90th Light** · 07-06-2012, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Rene Chavez View Post

I also concur that many of these fieldcaps as well as medals, etc were "sub-contracted production" to complete large orders on time. Who is to say in this case that manufacturer’s only stitch in a particular way or has to have an RB number. One thing I emphasize is that each field cap posted in this forum thread has to stand on its own merit IMO how caps were stitched in a particular way shouldn’t be an issue unless the whole cap is an obvious fake.<O

<O

Rene Chavez<O

www.foreignvolunteerlegion.com<O

</O

Hello Rene,

agree entirely. I repeat, your cap has every chance of being correct and period made before May 1945.

The challenge however, is that no one will view your example as a "one looker" until we can find more examples by this maker of 1944 dated M43's with a full "Alfred Valet" name/ address in them rather than a RB/ RF number.
( 1943 dated examples would also help )

Also, we need to see other "Alfred Valet's" M43's dated 1943 or 1944 with a T-trap's applied in that manner with a zig-zag stitch.

If you want to see the "one lookers" then do a search and look at the examples which Mike Davis or Glenn have put up. They have;

- T-trap applied in the trapezoid shape
- RB number
- date and depot letter
- size

These are the one-lookers which command the premium prices.

Of course there are original black Panzer M43's without the above or variations of it. They however, will not command as higher prices or be as readily accepted. Some may even be rejected.

I repeat, your one has every chance but you will need to keep researching or doing your homework. If you can find the evidence then you will move your one, into the realm of the one looker. Until such evidence is found, it stays in the realm of variation from the norm.

Personally, I find variations interesting and worth having depending on the price but there are those here, who disagree with me on this,

Chris

**djpool** · 07-06-2012, 07:12 PM

The fact this thread hasn't turned into a discussion on high tech fakes is either very encouraging or depressing. The fact that all the heavy weights haven't weighed in either means its good or such an awesome fake that everyones speechless.

If I had been offered it I would have bought it (if I had the money).

The problem with the Panzer M43s is there are often only one known example by a particular maker. If your lucky you might find a green M43 made by Valet to compare it to.

Jim

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Hello Rene,

agree entirely. I repeat, your cap has every chance of being correct and period made before May 1945.

The challenge however, is that no one will view your example as a "one looker" until we can find more examples by this maker of 1944 dated M43's with a full "Alfred Valet" name/ address in them rather than a RB/ RF number.
( 1943 dated examples would also help )

Also, we need to see other "Alfred Valet's" M43's dated 1943 or 1944 with a T-trap's applied in that manner with a zig-zag stitch.

If you want to see the "one lookers" then do a search and look at the examples which Mike Davis or Glenn have put up. They have;

- T-trap applied in the trapezoid shape
- RB number
- date and depot letter
- size These are the one-lookers which command the premium prices.

Of course there are original black Panzer M43's without the above or variations of it. They however, will not command as higher prices or be as readily accepted. Some may even be rejected.

I repeat, your one has every chance but you will need to keep researching or doing your homework. If you can find the evidence then you will move your one, into the realm of the one looker. Until such evidence is found, it stays in the realm of variation from the norm.

Personally, I find variations interesting and worth having depending on the price but there are those here, who disagree with me on this,

Chris

**Rene Chavez** · 07-06-2012, 09:58 PM

Thanks Jim and Chris I'm still waiting for my panzer cap to arrive but I have high confidence that it is an original. The minute I saw it to my eyes it was a one looker.

Rene Chavez
www.foreignvolunteerlegion.com

**Rene Chavez** · 07-07-2012, 06:33 PM

Well I finally got my rare panzer t-form field cap and let's just say I am very happy.
Is not often that I post items for review especially when items are view with skepticism as I have said before each item will stand on it's own merit. Collectors in general including me have to keep an open mind and without jumping to conclusions right away. Fortunately these forums provide a wealth of information even when unscrupulous fakers visit them. We as collectors who love history depend on each other and imo is important that the more information is share or provided the better it is for us because no matter what the fakers do, they will never replicate the real thing. Thank you all for the comments and information.

Rene Chavez
www.foreignvolunteerlegion.com

**djpool** · 07-07-2012, 06:37 PM

Rene,

Wonderful. Your photographic skills are also superb! Jim

Originally posted by Rene Chavez View Post

Well I finally got my rare panzer t-form field cap and let's just say I am very happy.
Is not often that I post items for review especially when items are view with skepticism as I have said before each item will stand on it's own merit. Collectors in general including me have to keep an open mind and without jumping to conclusions right away. Fortunately these forums provide a wealth of information even when unscrupulous fakers visit them. We as collectors who love history depend on each other and imo is important that the more information is share or provided the better it is for us because no matter what the fakers do, they will never replicate the real thing. Thank you all for the comments and information.

Rene Chavez
www.foreignvolunteerlegion.com

**90th Light** · 07-07-2012, 06:55 PM

Great photo Rene and your Pz. M43 does looks very nice indeed,

I wish I could hold it in hand to truely appreciate it.

Panzer M43's are a soft spot for me. Below are the ones that I have so far with more on the way.

Just can not get enough of them

Attached Files

CK SS Eaglei 936.jpg (146.0 KB, 226 views)

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