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**bodes** · 05-31-2004, 11:50 AM

IMHO it's one of the latest reproductions on the market today. I saw one similar at an auction that was complete w/SS sweatshield, maker tag, and ss/rzm'ed bill just like the one you have shown. They're making absolute perfect copies and I believe that's what you have.

**Bill D.** · 05-31-2004, 12:27 PM

O.K., it looks like reproductions that are coming out. But if it were an original, than that would make sense, since the good repros are made to look like an original.

Saying that something is fake because it looks like other fakes is not very helpful to collectors. What exactly is it about this cap that marks it as one that is a fake?

**Dave Kane** · 05-31-2004, 12:43 PM

Yes, it is indeed a fake! Look at the style of the '58' straight out of Eastern Europe.

Also, the cowhide sweatband that (for now) they can't get to fall flat against the frame nor have they come up with the proper ventilation perforations. Although the pics aren't very clear the 'style' of the piping appears to be similar to the US movie prop type....smooth rather than the weaved appearance.

Dave

**bodes** · 05-31-2004, 02:05 PM

Bill,
I guess I was going just as much on gut feeling as anything. The lack of any realistic wear/tear yet lacking chinstrap and insignia was one red flag. Another was the sweatshield. The only original ones that I've personally seen have a tan silk material and SS runes in silver in a circle.

**bodes** · 05-31-2004, 02:51 PM

.....tan silk material and SS runes in silver in a circle.

[/QUOTE]

........SS sigrunes in gilt in a circle...

**Bill D.** · 05-31-2004, 03:02 PM

Thanks for the additional information, guys.

The one bad thing about going only by pictures is that you can't smell the cap. I always stick my nose into a cap under consideration. There is something about the "smell" of age, the odor of sixty year old cloth and leather and celluloid and sweat that I don't think has been duplicated.

**Dave Kane** · 05-31-2004, 03:37 PM

Bill, that's just not true!!! I can smell the bloody thing from here....

And, it stinks.

Dave

**Bill D.** · 05-31-2004, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Dave Kane

Bill, that's just not true!!! I can smell the bloody thing from here....

And, it stinks.

Dave

**ReichsHeini** · 05-31-2004, 06:41 PM

Although I do agree this cap is a reproduction, I would think the interior would look more like this issue Allgemeine piece. Black silk with white VA acceptance stamp.

Attached Files

allgemeine.jpg (26.2 KB, 424 views)

**Cliff** · 06-01-2004, 06:55 AM

Until I see an exact one like this..that IS a proven repro, I'm not convinced!,

I do thank you for your input. Cliff

**Cliff** · 06-01-2004, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by Bill Dienna

Thanks for the additional information, guys.

The one bad thing about going only by pictures is that you can't smell the cap. I always stick my nose into a cap under consideration. There is something about the "smell" of age, the odor of sixty year old cloth and leather and celluloid and sweat that I don't think has been duplicated.

It does feel and smell old, which is why I bought it...Cliff

**Cliff** · 06-01-2004, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by bodes

Bill,
I guess I was going just as much on gut feeling as anything. The lack of any realistic wear/tear yet lacking chinstrap and insignia was one red flag. Another was the sweatshield. The only original ones that I've personally seen have a tan silk material and SS runes in silver in a circle.

The ones you have seen were SS stock. Have you seen privatly made Generals hats? How many of us had to be able to make a real evaluation? If it's a recent copy, why are there no pref holes when ALL the books say they should be there? The leather feels just like all that old dry leather I have felt in the many helmets I have owned. There are marks in the visor where a strap sat for a long time. There are also many other signs of age that would be very difficult nif not impossible to duplicate. All the pics in the world couldn't capture thease signs. I've been an antique dealer for 30 years and I have examined this hat very closly. It was not made yesterday. Theres no way it's a recent piece out of Europe...Cliff

**bodes** · 06-01-2004, 08:08 AM

Cliff, A person's evaluation is only as good as the information provided. It's difficult at times to evaluate a piece by fuzzy pictures on a flat screen. If it were mine and I still wasn't convinced, I'd post the pictures again in the SS Uniforms and Insignia Forum section. In case some of those guys didn't see it. If still not happy, take it to a big military show and see what you find there. I'm sure eventually you'll find somebody who'll tell you what you want to hear. If its any consolation, I bought an early SS overseas cap w/skull button on the front and eagle trapezoid on the side. It looks old, feels old,smelled musty, detail on the button is sharp. Nicely marked inside with proper black cotton liner. But I've read postings on this forum and found out the button is a known fake. It's an RZM'd marked 5/8 maker. Beautifully made.

**DonC** · 06-01-2004, 10:13 AM

Hi Cliff -

The thing that bothers me is the inked "58" over the maker's mark - that is a hallmark of the Latvian fakes. Can you post a scan of the rear of the cap where the piping joins up? That may tell us something as well. I have seen Erel and Peküro fakes like this with the same sweatband and the "58" size marking, whether or not they were actually that size or not. If the piping overlaps instead of butting together, I would say with confidence that it is a Latvia Special!

Don

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