SS M43 Panzer Cap

[RobertE]

Probably not. Beavers SS headgear book has a good number of black SS M43s, none of which are the Dachau type.

I believe the community has defaulted to the easiest type cap to authenticate, that being the one US troops picked up in good numbers: the Dachau M43. It is the one you see the least in pictures (you really have to hunt), but the one we cling to as being "textbook".

Our refusal to accept other types as potentially real borders on paranoia. 10's of thousands of these were produced, and we ignore them.

I just got another Dachau panzer M43 yesterday. They are just crap: no form, poorly made, lousy materials. Sad this is the "textbook" model.

Awesome picture, by the way!

[norge]

Probably not. Beavers SS headgear book has a good number of black SS M43s, none of which are the Dachau type.

I believe the community has defaulted to the easiest type cap to authenticate, that being the one US troops picked up in good numbers: the Dachau M43. It is the one you see the least in pictures (you really have to hunt), but the one we cling to as being "textbook".

Our refusal to accept other types as potentially real borders on paranoia. 10's of thousands of these were produced, and we ignore them.

I just got another Dachau panzer M43 yesterday. They are just crap: no form, poorly made, lousy materials. Sad this is the "textbook" model.

Awesome picture, by the way!

Well said Robert!
Open minded is ok sometimes ..but offcause some stick to textbook.. and dont dare or want anything else. Better safe than sorry maybe, or stuck in the world of us vet bring backs as the only real thing??. There was more than one front.
And there is a lot of period pics out there to study.

Anyway, its up to each collector to decide.
Personaly i get more and more reserved, and frighten to jump on such caps because of so many negative opinions and doubts on forums regarding "m43" panzer and heer caps...

This is very interesting thread by the way Seem like a new turn, after Chris posted those vet caps. What to believe now?
All the best
Gisle

[RobertE]

...or stuck in the world of us vet bring backs as the only real thing

Only some vet bring-backs are considered original. Time and again, other collectors have posted examples that are direct vet acquisitions, and they are dismissed. Chris' most recent posting is an example of this.

As collectors, we are throwing many good examples out the door. We don't know what we don't know about these black M43's - we need to take a step back and consider what we are dismissing.

[phild]

...or stuck in the world of us vet bring backs as the only real thing

Only some vet bring-backs are considered original. Time and again, other collectors have posted examples that are direct vet acquisitions, and they are dismissed. Chris' most recent posting is an example of this.

As collectors, we are throwing many good examples out the door. We don't know what we don't know about these black M43's - we need to take a step back and consider what we are dismissing.

Again both of your last posts sum up my thinking on this subject very well! Well stated!

The definition of textbook in many areas of collecting is shaky and overrated....it most often means "dumbed down".

The obvious point that I see missed on most every controversial item that is posted (color piped SS peaked caps, hbt lined M-43 feldgrau SS caps, green decal LW helmets, TK flap stamped Luger holsters and the list of hundreds of other "types" of items across many categories is that they are often dismissed ONLY because the varition is too rare or unknown to exist by collectors and hence must be fake.....at least to the right dealer or collector expert offers one or publishes it in an accepted reference and then it is somewhat legit.

[piw]

Is there an increasing difference of mentality/open mindnesses between US and European/Australisian collectors regarding certain M43 cap types?

[wisches]

I do see how Chris's cuff could be summarily dismissed as a reenactor sleeve cut off. The cuff detail stitching is the boxy rectangular style, most commonly found on fake uniforms, especially Janke products. I know when I see cuff sewing of that style it immediately puts me off.

I prefer the styles most commonly seen where the top of the cuff opening stitching is more narrow than the bottom. Some have very radical angles, and some angles are barely discernible...but most are somewhat narrower than the boxy style shown in Chris's photo and described above.

What has to be kept in mind is that the boxy style was used on original WWII German military uniforms. While it may not be near as common, it was in fact used, and that has been discussed before on this forum.

On the actual cutoff cuff there is an original Prinz Eugen cuff title, with some damage. Also an original private's stripe. Both appear consistently sewn with original methods. Where the sleeve eagle was clearly exhibits something was there in the same shape as an SS eagle that preserved the nap. This does not look like a sleeve where all the nap is gone from sun or bugs. Various parts exhibit wear, scuffing, and have nap remaining in scattered places, which is consistent with actual field wear. I may not have seen that type of HBT pattern lining, bu that does not mean it did not exist.

Most of us do not know Chris, and he is just a lot of typed words, and a few photos. Many, especially moderators with differing opinions, get rather annoyed at his willingness to be rather verbose getting his point across. I do understand their criticism, as I tend to write too much, but I must say, I do not see any evidence in those lengthy tomes, however annoying, to dismiss him as someone who would make up a vet story about a cut off sleeve, especially considering this was Veteran's Day.

Richard

Photo 1. Chris's sleeve cut off.

Photo 2. Sleeve sewing of the type I prefer to see.

just a thought.....
could the sleeve be wartime 'taken in' as if it was too wide [to me shows signs of sewing]
then new closure sewn in....
wisches

[RobertE]

Here's my new Dachau M43, and a "suspect" M43. A few points: the trapezoid is identical, and identically sewn on with the same tensioned zig-zag stitch.

The material is identical - same "weave" to one side, same thin, cheap material. The special material used in their manufacture is unique to Dachau M43s. The "suspect" M43 is made from exactly this material.

And the silver-grey liner material is what is used in green M43s. This exact stuff.

And while it wasn't passed to me from the trembling hands of a vet, the transfer of which was recorded by the local TV station and I can post for U-tube, and the laminated capture certificate with a picture of the vet in WWII holding the same cap, it was almost free. I got it with a pile of other (real) SS insignia items.

The fact this can't even be examined on it's own merits galls me. It could very well be a replica, and I'd be fine with that - after some civil discussion with experienced collectors. That this cap and the others presented are just poo-poo'd out of hand seems wrong.

s/f Robert

[RobertE]

THIS is the stunning quality and workmanship that all other black SS M43s must emulate?

[RobertE]

We need to stop with one-word pronouncements and settle into a discussion. I don't think any of the collectors trying to encourage actual discuussion are interested in judgements from on high - I am not submitting pictures and thoughts for a "pass" or "fail" from a lofty expert.

If this discussion bores you because you've "heard it all before" please go find something else to read. I pay my dues as a member to learn something I didn't know before - but this complex of a discussion rates more than a "not for me".

[NZMark]

We need to stop with one-word pronouncements and settle into a discussion. I don't think any of the collectors trying to encourage actual discuussion are interested in judgements from on high - I am not submitting pictures and thoughts for a "pass" or "fail" from a lofty expert.

If this discussion bores you because you've "heard it all before" please go find something else to read. I pay my dues as a member to learn something I didn't know before - but this complex of a discussion rates more than a "not for me".

Worth Repeating. With Respect,
Mark

[piw]

Here's my new Dachau M43, and a "suspect" M43. A few points: the trapezoid is identical, and identically sewn on with the same tensioned zig-zag stitch.

The material is identical - same "weave" to one side, same thin, cheap material. The special material used in their manufacture is unique to Dachau M43s. The "suspect" M43 is made from exactly this material.

And the silver-grey liner material is what is used in green M43s. This exact stuff.

And while it wasn't passed to me from the trembling hands of a vet, the transfer of which was recorded by the local TV station and I can post for U-tube, and the laminated capture certificate with a picture of the vet in WWII holding the same cap, it was almost free. I got it with a pile of other (real) SS insignia items.

The fact this can't even be examined on it's own merits galls me. It could very well be a replica, and I'd be fine with that - after some civil discussion with experienced collectors. That this cap and the others presented are just poo-poo'd out of hand seems wrong.

s/f Robert

The fact you have a photo of the cap in the hands of the last owner in '45 with capture cert would suggest this panzer cap with HBT lining has real potential (assuming its the exact same cap and not a post war replacement!). Could you post the photo/certificate here?

[RobertE]

"And while it wasn't passed to me..."

Sorry, I was saying that I didn't have this type of documentation on the M43, but was remarking about the level of "provinence" that now seems to be required to prove it was truly vet acquired.

regards, Robert

[piw]

My bad!

[alexandre]

A green original cap with HBT lining



http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=479347

[alexandre]

Yup..cap sold and thread deleted, but maybe ITALIANWARFRONT, the seller,
could add to this thread some pics of the cap for reference?