SS M43 Panzer Cap

[B. N. Singer]

“if that chick don’t want to know, let her”


I could entertain a doubt..


“if that chick don’t want to know, forget her”

Yes how remiss of me, thank you that does work MUCH better.
“forget her”

B. N. Singer

[brooksbz]

help

I really enjoy this forum when the fact based technical aspects of the hobby are put forth and explained.

I also believe that the forum becomes less effective as a tool to further the hobby when it moves away from the quantitative discussions to a more subjective/emotional line of discussion.

That said, i really learned alot about sleeves that I did not know before in this thread.

[Bob Hritz]

So, is it the latest wisdom that only Dachau type SS panzer M-43 caps are original or have there been other types accepted as original?

Bob Hritz

[Mike Davis]

I do see how Chris's cuff could be summarily dismissed as a reenactor sleeve cut off. The cuff detail stitching is the boxy rectangular style, most commonly found on fake uniforms, especially Janke products. I know when I see cuff sewing of that style it immediately puts me off.

I prefer the styles most commonly seen where the top of the cuff opening stitching is more narrow than the bottom. Some have very radical angles, and some angles are barely discernible...but most are somewhat narrower than the boxy style shown in Chris's photo and described above.

Chris, sincere apologies if I was in error about the sleeve but I based my judgment mostly on the factor Richard P describes above. The other points I had noted were the generally ragged appearance of the lines of stitching overall as well as the shallow position of the stitching line at cuff hem, a feature often seen on copies. I have owned hundreds of issue German uniforms but don't recall ever seeing the boxy shape found on an original. But as always, I do try to keep an open mind and so maybe I can learn something here.

[Mike Davis]

So, is it the latest wisdom that only Dachau type SS panzer M-43 caps are original or have there been other types accepted as original?

Bob Hritz

Bob, wouldn't you agree that, at a bare minumum, other types than just the Dachau model must have existed based on the photographic evidence?

[phild]

I appreciate the input on the sleeve from both Richard and Mike. I admit that the relative shallow depth of the cuff hem also struck me as non-typical.

The non-angled stitching on the cuff opening did not bother me as much as I know that characteristic can be found on original Heer (at least) tunics. I have seen it on M-43s and a couple of PZ wraps that were beyond any question originals and not altered. I guess that I should say that the angle on these were not apparent, but re-reading Richard's post the few that I have seen may have had a very slight angle to the stitching if I had measured the top and bottom rows.

I also know that many repros have this characteristic and it has been cited as a sign of a repro, but some originals were made like that as well.

[Bob Hritz]

Bob, wouldn't you agree that, at a bare minumum, other types than just the Dachau model must have existed based on the photographic evidence?

I wrote the question wrong. What I was trying to ask was are there any known accepted original SS panzer M-43 caps, in collections, other than the Dachau types? Are we aware of multiple examples by the same maker?

If a collector had the M-43 cap, that we see in photos, but the photo did not exist; would the M-43 cap still be original?

I would also like to know what key points are there to determine authenticity, without giving away all the details to those who would cheat us.

I have a number of Heer and Luftwaffe, and a few feldgrau SS M-43 caps, but have never had the experience to know enough to to be confident. I have made a few mistakes and the cost is such that I do not wish to repeat those mistakes on newer generation fakes.

Bob Hritz

[Mike Davis]

I wrote the question wrong. What I was trying to ask was are there any known accepted original SS panzer M-43 caps, in collections, other than the Dachau types? Are we aware of multiple examples by the same maker?

Well, I suppose that is (mostly) what we are talking about here. As we have seen, it is a contentious subject!

I may have written this earlier, I personally have never seen a non-Dachau type black WSS M43 that I was certain was original. Others have had different experiences. Of course discussion through photos alone, without handling, puts us all at a disadvantage.

I'm attaching scans of some scans of vintage photos made in the late '70s or early '80s of some M43 caps from the old Donnie Woods collection (apologies for the poor quality). The only type of black M43 I remember him having was the expected Dachau model. ALL of his caps from that period were veteran sourced, mostly from Alabama.

[Mike Davis]

Two more

[piw]

This thread has turned into a really interesting one.

As Bob hints at above it would seem the evidence choices are:

A) It is difficult to prove without any doubt that black WSS M43s with late war traps were produced with HBT lining/wool underneath the peak and used by combat formations. This may also be pertinent for WSS feldgrau versions.

B) It is difficult to prove without any doubt that black WSS M43s with late war traps and with HBT lining/wool underneath the peak were produced in Italy 44/45 and used by combat formations. This may also be pertinent for WSS feldgrau versions.

C) It is fact that Italian made gabadine WSS feldgrau M43s (perhaps with HBT linings) were period made and accepted as such.

D) It is fact that Dachua variant WSS black/feldgrau M43s (perhaps with HBT linings) were period made and accepted as such.

Based on these conclusions - unless clear and unequivocal evidence either photographic or provenance based emerges - then as a collector it would be prudent to only buy WSS late trap caps made of Italian gabadine (feldgrau) or Dachua (black)made caps with card peak.

[phild]

The bottom cap that Mike posted, the officers cap, appears to have a bevo trap that is zig-zag sewed. This has often been stated to have not been the technique used on wartime SS Feldgrau m43s with bevo traps.....there would be no doubt that the insignia is period sewn. Chris also posted one (not officers however) with the same sewing on the bevo trap.

[90th Light]

Chris, sincere apologies if I was in error about the sleeve but I based my judgment mostly on the factor Richard P describes above. The other points I had noted were the generally ragged appearance of the lines of stitching overall as well as the shallow position of the stitching line at cuff hem, a feature often seen on copies. I have owned hundreds of issue German uniforms but don't recall ever seeing the boxy shape found on an original. But as always, I do try to keep an open mind and so maybe I can learn something here.

Thank you Mike and to the other members who are taking the time to explain this properly for me or share the benefit of their experience.

My sleeve is veteran brought back beyond doubt but I can now see how it is being seen as a fox in the chicken house because of the stitching and the HBT.

The point I feel, however, is that this sleeve clearly came off a tunic of the 7th Prinz Eugen SS Division in May 1945 as the 22nd Battalion of the NZEF continued its rapid advance into Trieste and beyond. The 22nd Batt were being used as a recon unit at that stage ahead of the tank battalions of the division

Now the question is where did the 7th SS "Prinz Eugen" source their tunics and caps from ?

The German members who joined that division transfered from other German SS/ German units would have brought their German made tunics and caps with them

but where did the tunics and caps for the bulk of the rank and file recruited locally come from ?.

The answer has to be, from the closest logistical supply centers that were practical for an SS unit being formed in the Balkans during the war. Now this might be factories in Croatia, Serbia, Austria or Italy. Either way factories in other parts of Germany and the larger Reich are further away and logistically more expensive to source from plus they may already be over committed supplying other fronts.

How many known beyond doubt examples of tunic or caps from the 7th SS are there in collections today and what sort of cuff/ sleeve stitching do they have or what type of lining do the have ?

The same questions also need to be asked for the 24th SS and 29th SS divisions who were also fighting in that part of Italy at that time in regard to their caps and tunics.

Keep in mind to that the cap whose lining I showed in post number 232 has a clear identification as to where it was manufactored but I was not prepared to share that with the fakers. That cap is also a direct NZEF veteran bring back from Trieste May 1945 and I have the NZ soldiers details who got it,

Chris

[90th Light]

The bottom cap that Mike posted, the officers cap, appears to have a bevo trap that is zig-zag sewed. This has often been stated to have not been the technique used on wartime SS Feldgrau m43s with bevo traps.....there would be no doubt that the insignia is period sewn. Chris also posted one (not officers however) with the same sewing on the bevo trap.

Hello phild,

the cap whose lining I posted in post number 232 is the NZEF veteran brought back example from a depot near Trieste May 1945 according to the New Zealand soldier who got it.

Also notice how the HBT appears to be the same type accepted on the Dachau made examples

Many thanks for bringing this back to the attention of the members reading this,

Chris

[90th Light]

I appreciate the input on the sleeve from both Richard and Mike. I admit that the relative shallow depth of the cuff hem also struck me as non-typical.

The non-angled stitching on the cuff opening did not bother me as much as I know that characteristic can be found on original Heer (at least) tunics. I have seen it on M-43s and a couple of PZ wraps that were beyond any question originals and not altered. I guess that I should say that the angle on these were not apparent, but re-reading Richard's post the few that I have seen may have had a very slight angle to the stitching if I had measured the top and bottom rows.

I also know that many repros have this characteristic and it has been cited as a sign of a repro, but some originals were made like that as well.

Hello again phild,

I have had an email asking me if the bottom of the sleeve (cuff) has been shortened or taken up because of fraying.

Not something I had ever thought about until now but when I look at it, there does appear to have been some sort of alteration because the hem is quite uneven and the sewing which is done using a slight variation of color of thread appears to have been done in haste or difficulty because they have missed a wee bit.

Anyway I will get some of my other tunics out of storage when I get a chance and compare the ends of the cuffs to double check this point,

Chris

[Bob Hritz]

Would we recognize these caps as original if they were in collections?

Bob Hritz