SS M43 Panzer Cap

[B. N. Singer]

First off let me say a thank you to all who have responded to my postings.

I certainly can not complain that the matter is not being followed with some interest and that has to be good.

The reservation I have with just getting on and posting images of my caps, what is the purpose of this ???

to actually try and get to the bottom of the matter, start to find actual weakness in the reproductions verses the footprints of an original and perhaps review even reverse the thinking about some of the examples out there of this type of cap which has become so ingrained ?

or is it to shoot the ones I have down in flames, confirm the mind sets that already prevail and eliminate what I have put forward like an annoying fly on a summers day ?

You see I just do not hold enough weight to make the impact which this needs esp. given that Mr Singer has put his kiss of death on these time and time again. Others have quickly joined his sentiment but I can see however that Mike Davis is opening the door to a fair review.

Even to have got this far in relation to this thread is because Billbert who holds a lot more weight than I do in such matters has added the benefit of his experience that he knows of excellent 1990 fakes out there but there are also some period originals which served as the basis of the reproduction in the first place. This is what we need to get our heads around and gets us all thinking.

At the end of the day we collectors of Militaria can be a pack of wolves. We hunt in packs or as lone wolves and we savage weak ones. Now for me to suddenly up and post my examples in the hope that there would be a turn-a-round revision of some heavy duty mind-sets could be like a lamb to the slaughter I fear.

Perception is everything in these matter and it has a major bearing on what one sees and does not see. A large part of perception is where something comes from and what someone holds with in the group. My examples do not hold enough weight at this stage but I am only too happy to contribute to any thread devoted to trying to solve this matter where other members are also posting images of actual original or suspected originals caps for in depth study.

My caps although original, simply just do not have the weight to get the ball rolling on that front for now plus I may have rattled some to wrong way in the past because I like to question rather than just blindly accept so what is the purpose of their interest. Is it an intention to credit or discredit in the study of this ?

Chris

Predictable, empty volumes, once again.

The simple fact is IF your hats were Originally brought back by vets, the vast likelihood is they would stand up by themselves to scrutiny by ALL knowledgeable who look at these threads (And I would be among the first to say so.). End of story.

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

Well, I can certainly appreciate your reservations about posting but the reason I asked you to do so is to genuinely get to the bottom of the matter.

Since the caps to which you refer came from veteran sources long ago it seems to me that this would give us all a unique opportunity to learn.

One reason that people are so gun shy about WSS Panzer M43 caps is because they have been so heavily faked.

Personally I have an open mind about the possibility that this type of cap was manufactured with linings in HBT and would greatly appreciate seeing evidence that would help prove or disprove the theory.

Personally, the only type of black WSS M43 that I have owned have been the dual insignia single button type or the Dachau KZ-made examples.

I'm not complicated enough to have any other agenda so, for my own selfish reasons, I hope you will post photos of the caps!

Hello Mike,

I can see that you are sincere in this matter, take on board what you say and I am weighing up the pros and cons of this request for example the cap was part of a nice grouping of items so do I post the whole find so you can all appreciate what it was found with.

My M43 with trap was not the only NZ veteran brought back lot from Austria 1945 that we came across. One of the other groupings of items which we got the opportunity to inspect also had an M43 in field grey with trap. Sadly the veteran did not want to sell that lot but we got to take some pictures. These were until today only in existance on the negatives from when they were photographed many years ago but this thread has prompted me to go look them out and get them put on to disk plus printed so I may start by posting those.

I will have to look my cap out and arrange to have some images taken to be able to add my one to this thread so I can not post anything quickly and I still have not settled in my own mine if it will be nothing more than a tree falling in the middle of a forest. What noise or difference will that make for others reading this who have already made up their minds about these M43's long ago.

Anyway I will get my photos back tomorrow so that might be the starting point and in the mean time who knows may be someone else will post images of an interesting example which they might have or know about because at the end of the day there are perfectly original exampls of SS M43's with traps and HBT linings out there.

Lets not lose sight of the fact that there is also a lot of resistance to many/ all SS M43's with traps as well and I note that you yourself by your own admission do not seem to have any examples except those with the Dachau type trap.

Appreciate your input,

Chris

[90th Light]

Predictable, empty volumes, once again.

The simple fact is IF your hats were Originally brought back by vets, the vast likelihood is they would stand up by themselves to scrutiny by ALL knowledgeable who look at these threads (And I would be among the first to say so.). End of story.

B. N. Singer

Mr Singer,

"when a tree falls in a forest what noise does it make"

You want the images posted or not because I certainly have better things to do with my time than to waste it with those who can not see the wood for the trees on this one and have super-glued their minds against all possiblities other than the one they locked in there in the 1990's at a militaria/ gun show some where.

but thank you for confirming my point that any thing I post images of would not have the weighting required and that others need to now intervene and give this the substance to get certain collectors off their high horses.

and you may call my postings empty but I have accomplished what I have set out to achieved and that is to alert the collecting community of German Militaria that there are in fact some SS M43 with HBT lining other than the Dachau type which are original and made before May 1945.

Our challenge now, yours included is how we tell good from bad rather than just dismissing all of them as bad because this one has proved too hard in the past. In fact I would have expected more from a collector of your calibre in this matter than just once again trying to insult me and belittle what I have posted,

Chris

[B. N. Singer]

Mr Singer,

"when a tree falls in a forest what noise does it make"

You want the images posted or not because I certainly have better things to do with my time than to waste it with those who can not see the wood for the trees on this one and have super-glued their minds against all possiblities other than the one they locked in there in the 1990's at a militaria/ gun show some where.

but thank you for confirming my point that any thing I post images of would not have the weighting required and that others need to now intervene and give this the substance to get certain collectors off their high horses.

and you may call my postings empty but I have accomplished what I have set out to achieved and that is to alert the collecting community of German Militaria that there are in fact some SS M43 with HBT lining other than the Dachau type which are original and made before May 1945.

Our challenge now, yours included is how we tell good from bad rather than just dismissing all of them as bad because this one has proved too hard in the past. In fact I would have expected more from a collector of your calibre in this matter than just once again trying to insult me and belittle what I have posted,

Chris

Sir,

A) You are welcome (I think).

B) Your feeling of accomplishment is noted.

C) Yes, images of Original examples are always welcome on the WAF. And furthermore, it would be my guess, that as you have habitually referred to these examples, you would be delighted to shove them in the face of a “smug A-hole” like myself.

With regards,
B. N. Singer

[derka]

hello,

no dog in this race, just few words to share.

Chris wrote :
"Lets not lose sight of the fact that there is also a lot of resistance to many/ all SS M43's with traps as well and I note that you yourself by your own admission do not seem to have any examples except those with the Dachau type trap. "

- at least some feldgrau SS M43 cap with trap were for sure used in late period of war,
and they were not the Dachau type : period pics exist of those, althought i think they were not so much in use at that late period.
i don't remember pics of black caps with traps, but there were some black backed traps applied on feldgrau caps too.

- for the hbt lining use during ww2 laste stages, i don't know.
but i can tell you this :
of course, this canno't be considered as an evidence, but i saw (with my own eyes) lots of them (feldgrau and black) about 20 years ago for sale in well known shop "HSC" in Paris,
and they were all fakes, some with original insignias and some with fake insignias on them, and i'm not talking about Dachau pattern.
some M43 were made with italian gabardine material, mostly with only one buton,
and particulary those with piping for officers, and some of those caps had hbt lining too.
all M43 caps i saw there had only size stamps inside, no date, manufacturer or rbnr, sometimes "statni film' stamps or soviet stamps...
i know many of them were bought as original (hence paid big money) by french and foreign collectors,
including some from US, and at least in one case by another pro dealer : i saw this myself.
where are they all now ? they surface from time to time, in US or in european countries...
imho, 95% (or even more) of SS M43 with traps proposed for sale nowwdays, black or feldgrau, whatever with hbt lining or not,
are only at best original caps with an original trap reaplied post ww2 on them.
or in other words, less than 5% (and i'might be very optimistic unfortunatly) of non Dachau pattern M43 caps are original with origiçnal traps period aplied on them...
just my 2 cents.
derka

[Mike Davis]

Lets not lose sight of the fact that there is also a lot of resistance to many/ all SS M43's with traps as well and I note that you yourself by your own admission do not seem to have any examples except those with the Dachau type trap.

Thanks Chris, we will look forward to the photos no matter what the quality.

And you're right, I don't *remember* ever seeing an black SS M43 in person with woven trap that had the one look original quality but then my memory is certainly not what it once was.

Will be at MAX Show for a few days but will check in upon returning.

[90th Light]

Sir,

A) You are welcome (I think).

B) Your feeling of accomplishment is noted.

C) Yes, images of Original examples are always welcome on the WAF. And furthermore, it would be my guess, that as you have habitually referred to these examples, you would be delighted to shove them in the face of a “smug A-hole” like myself.

With regards,
B. N. Singer

Mr Singer,

I have no delight in shoving anything in any ones face. I may have many faults but egotistical is not one of them and one should always be careful to never kick a dog on the way up because you may meet the wolf on the way down. Well this is my experience anyway

My interest is purely one of real history of a time, simple as that

To this end I feel or hope that we might all in fact be rowing in the same boat and that is sorting out the good from the bad then preserving the good for those who follow us and may have the interest, passion and enjoyment from collecting this stuff that I have had over the years.

You say I do not have an original SS M43 with HBT lining "end of story" fair enough, who am I to argue with you. Like I said I really have some other priorities to get on with and in terms of meeting deadlines right now. The walls are closing in.

Here is the note I wrote and had placed with the negatives which I am getting put on to disk today. They tell me that I will be able to post images from the disk so I will have a talk to the member who is kind enough to post for me from time to time;

"Dad was in RMT during the war and knew this guy in 23 Battalion. Went round to see him over 40 years ago. He had been taken prisoner in Italy in 1944. Got out of a POW camp in Austria in 1945. The Mountain trooper tunic came from a depot near by but the other items were picked up in southern Austria on the way out. Went back 15 years ago just in case he had changed his mind about selling the stuff but he had not so I took the photos. The SS M43 cap had suffered some mothing from when I first saw it but this does not show up a lot in the photos. He stated clearly that he was leaving the items to his family" The visor had been wreaked some what from when I first saw it by the grandchildren playing with it."

Chris

p.s. not my father in RMT but my friends

[B. N. Singer]

Mr Singer,

....You say I do not have an original SS M43 with HBT lining "end of story" fair enough, who am I to argue with you...

Please be careful of your claims Sir; where did I say this? And care not I whom you choose to argue with.

B. N. Singer

[BenVK]

I wish you two would give it a rest!

Here's another herringbone cap and some nice big photos to study.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=374131

Thoughts?

[Erik]

Always willing to take a risk I will show you my example of the heavy debated SS M43 with HBT lining and trap...My camera is not the best but hope this will do for now.

The cap is definately used. There is much nap loss all over and easy to see when compared with the inside of the flaps. No mistake about that. Also the liner shows clear grease marks typical for being worn. And the trap shows honest wear too. Also, IMO the construction is good. I always had a very good feeling about this one.

Erik

[Erik]

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[Erik]

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[BenVK]

I don't ever recal seeing a liner double stitched like this before.

Plus, Just noticed that the weave on the top lining is going 90 degrees to the norm.

What does that all mean? don't ask me!

Maybe Bryon can break his own rules and go into some details for us this time.
Pretty please!

[Lenny W]

I don't ever recal seeing a liner double stitched like this before.

Plus, Just noticed that the weave on the top lining is going 90 degrees to the norm.

What does that all mean? don't ask me!

Maybe Bryon can break his own rules and go into some details for us this time.
Pretty please!

i dont think i have either Ben ,insignia looks hand sewn on this cap as well at least to my eyes

[BenVK]

insignia looks hand sewn on this cap as well at least to my eyes

I have to agree Lenny.