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David Hiorth

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SS M43 Panzer Cap

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    #16
    Hello Dave,

    basically a strong group of members on this forum are anti any black M43 cap with an HBT lining (other than the Dachau type with exposed cardboard bill) plus a couple of features about M43's in general. This is because of the number of black M43's which appeared at shows in the USA or with dealers in the 1990's/ 2000's

    The problem is that there were also original black M43's being found in the 1990's and 2000's such as those found with HBT lining near Augustdorf in late 2001.

    Have a look at a thread titled "SS M43 Panzer up for Disscusion" (note the spelling of "discussion") and you will get a lot more detail about this debate. I brought this up to the top yesterday but see my posting has been deleted to make it disappear. I am surprised by its removal and can only speculate that may be that thread was a little too close to the bone.

    Any way have a look because that will fill in some of the gaps that you seek and lets hope that they do not remove that as well all in the name of truth and open discussion about these caps some which were in existance before May 1945,

    Chris

    There is a lot of truth in the comments made above..Probably around 1995 I shot my own foot off by not more closely scrutinizing a VERY similar original ss panzer trap m43 cap that was bargain basement priced at a MAJOR US show..at this time many of these caps were being manufactured for an american dealer whom would acquire original insignia and 3 months later WELLAH !! m43 hats!!
    A European collector gleefully corrected my misjudgement with a purchase...

    That being said ..I still believe IMHO the cap in question is questionable at best and at the least bears the prejudice of negativity for most experienced collectors... Regards Billbert<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

    Comment

      #17
      Originally posted by billbert View Post

      There is a lot of truth in the comments made above..Probably around 1995 I shot my own foot off by not more closely scrutinizing a VERY similar original ss panzer trap m43 cap that was bargain basement priced at a MAJOR US show..at this time many of these caps were being manufactured for an american dealer whom would acquire original insignia and 3 months later WELLAH !! m43 hats!!
      A European collector gleefully corrected my misjudgement with a purchase...

      That being said ..I still believe IMHO the cap in question is questionable at best and at the least bears the prejudice of negativity for most experienced collectors... Regards Billbert<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

      Hello Billbert,

      thanks for confirming that I am not going completely silly on this one.

      Once again you hit the nail right on the head and the source of my frustration, I have a black Panzer example which I can trace back to 1971 plus a field grey example brought back by a New Zealand soldier in 1945 from Austria. Both have HBT linings and were made before May 1945.

      And no it is not the money value of these which concerns me because by today's prices I did not pay a high price for them. What concerns me is the "real" history being denied or being so quickly declared reproduction and then I am condemned for defending a fake when mine are not fake.

      The one that started this thread faces the challenge, how do we tell good from bad ? Did they use all original materials on the 1990 made examples ?

      Any way thank you for taking the time to explain your experience with these and the fact that you too have seen an original example. In fact your posting may be of great benefit to the owner of this cap should he seek a refund from the dealer because you have presented something objective for him to state.

      but also you have made the point that perhaps we should all double check this type of SS M43 before we simply dismiss them all as bad.

      Many thanks,

      Chris

      Comment

        #18
        Have a look at a thread titled "SS M43 Panzer up for Disscusion" (note the spelling of "discussion") and you will get a lot more detail about this debate. I brought this up to the top yesterday but see my posting has been deleted to make it disappear. I am surprised by its removal and can only speculate that may be that thread was a little too close to the bone. <!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

        Can you post the link 90th Light? I searched but could not locate it.

        As for a posting being 'deleted', Glenn McInnes and I moderate the Cloth Headgear Forum and have not removed anything pertaining to this topic....
        Last edited by Mike Davis; 09-28-2010, 09:18 AM.

        Comment

          #19
          Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
          ...I have a black Panzer example which I can trace back to 1971 plus a field grey example brought back by a New Zealand soldier in 1945 from Austria. Both have HBT linings and were made before May 1945....

          May we take a look at these caps? And if you have posted them already, could you provide the links?

          Comment

            #20
            Here's the link:
            http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=ss+disscusion

            Comment

              #21
              Thanks! It is a very interesting thread and topic.
              Last edited by Mike Davis; 09-28-2010, 10:33 AM.

              Comment

                #22
                Originally posted by Mike Davis View Post
                May we take a look at these caps?...
                Yes, that would be Very Interesting indeed; and I am sure there would be MANY other hat enthusiasts who would echo Mr. Davis’s request.

                B. N. Singer

                Comment

                  #23
                  Originally posted by B. N. Singer View Post
                  Yes, that would be Very Interesting indeed; and I am sure there would be MANY other hat enthusiasts who would echo Mr. Davis’s request.

                  B. N. Singer
                  could you post those pics Chris
                  Give a man an opinion and you feed him for a day,
                  teach a man to use the "search" function on the WAF and you feed him for a lifetime.

                  Comment

                    #24
                    Hi guys,

                    Thanks for the imformative replies and opinions. I personally have neither the money or knowledge to take a risk on this as it cost me alot of money and cant lose it. I will pursue getting my money back and hopefully will achieve this as i have not long had it.

                    Regards, CM

                    Comment

                      #25
                      I've never risked my money on one either. Way too controversial.

                      Comment

                        #26
                        First off let me say a thank you to all who have responded to my postings.

                        I certainly can not complain that the matter is not being followed with some interest and that has to be good.

                        The reservation I have with just getting on and posting images of my caps, what is the purpose of this ???

                        to actually try and get to the bottom of the matter, start to find actual weakness in the reproductions verses the footprints of an original and perhaps review even reverse the thinking about some of the examples out there of this type of cap which has become so ingrained ?

                        or is it to shoot the ones I have down in flames, confirm the mind sets that already prevail and eliminate what I have put forward like an annoying fly on a summers day ?

                        You see I just do not hold enough weight to make the impact which this needs esp. given that Mr Singer has put his kiss of death on these time and time again. Others have quickly joined his sentiment but I can see however that Mike Davis is opening the door to a fair review.

                        Even to have got this far in relation to this thread is because Billbert who holds a lot more weight than I do in such matters has added the benefit of his experience that he knows of excellent 1990 fakes out there but there are also some period originals which served as the basis of the reproduction in the first place. This is what we need to get our heads around and gets us all thinking.

                        At the end of the day we collectors of Militaria can be a pack of wolves. We hunt in packs or as lone wolves and we savage weak ones. Now for me to suddenly up and post my examples in the hope that there would be a turn-a-round revision of some heavy duty mind-sets could be like a lamb to the slaughter I fear.

                        Perception is everything in these matter and it has a major bearing on what one sees and does not see. A large part of perception is where something comes from and what someone holds with in the group. My examples do not hold enough weight at this stage but I am only too happy to contribute to any thread devoted to trying to solve this matter where other members are also posting images of actual original or suspected originals caps for in depth study.

                        My caps although original, simply just do not have the weight to get the ball rolling on that front for now plus I may have rattled some to wrong way in the past because I like to question rather than just blindly accept so what is the purpose of their interest. Is it an intention to credit or discredit in the study of this ?

                        Chris
                        Last edited by 90th Light; 09-28-2010, 04:21 PM.

                        Comment

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Chosen_Man View Post
                          I will pursue getting my money back and hopefully will achieve this as i have not long had it.
                          Smart move! Good luck.

                          Here is one I would own:

                          http://www.virtualgrenadier.com/sale_item.php?iid=789
                          Willi

                          Preußens Gloria!

                          sigpic

                          Sapere aude

                          Comment

                            #28
                            Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
                            The reservation I have with just getting on and posting images of my caps, what is the purpose of this ???

                            to actually try and get to the bottom of the matter, start to find actual weakness in the reproductions verses the footprints of an original and perhaps review even reverse the thinking about some of the examples out there of this type of cap which has become so ingrained ?


                            Well, I can certainly appreciate your reservations about posting but the reason I asked you to do so is to genuinely get to the bottom of the matter.

                            Since the caps to which you refer came from veteran sources long ago it seems to me that this would give us all a unique opportunity to learn.

                            One reason that people are so gun shy about WSS Panzer M43 caps is because they have been so heavily faked.

                            Personally I have an open mind about the possibility that this type of cap was manufactured with linings in HBT and would greatly appreciate seeing evidence that would help prove or disprove the theory.

                            Personally, the only type of black WSS M43 that I have owned have been the dual insignia single button type or the Dachau KZ-made examples.

                            I'm not complicated enough to have any other agenda so, for my own selfish reasons, I hope you will post photos of the caps!

                            Comment

                              #29
                              At the highest of prices WHEN in doubt (yours or others (resale) ) ..do without can be a safe although not always correct navigation...Billbert

                              While we all enjoy escalating the values on items it does detract the sheer enjoyment of collecting when you have to look at things in a mob rule mentality whether the mob ist RICHTIG oder NICHT RICHTIG...

                              Billbert

                              ps the MOB is more right than wrong by the way....

                              Comment

                                #30
                                Originally posted by billbert View Post
                                At the highest of prices WHEN in doubt (yours or others (resale) ) ..do without can be a safe although not always correct navigation...Billbert

                                While we all enjoy escalating the values on items it does detract the sheer enjoyment of collecting when you have to look at things in a mob rule mentality whether the mob ist RICHTIG oder NICHT RICHTIG...

                                Billbert

                                ps the MOB is more right than wrong by the way....
                                While in the current economic climate and as prices start to go off the highs of the last ten years then perhaps yes we will get back to a focus on the "real" history rather than the "real" value deal.

                                I agree totally with what you say here Billbert, well put,

                                Chris

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