dak sidecaps with added soutache?

[B. N. Singer]

...

At this point i am pretty skeptical of any Brandt with a soutache 842...

Then Sir, you are doing yourself a “disservice”.

B. N. Singer

[Tim O'Keefe]

Then Sir, you are doing yourself a “disservice”.

B. N. Singer

Hello Mr Singer

The 842's should be judged individually as some are good for sure. But with everything caution should be shown...years ago the 842 with or without a soutache was an automatic those were the days...

with kind regards
Tim

[derka]

i will not say anything about trop sidecaps.
just few precisions :
july 10th 1942, HM, Ziff 597 : decision to stop using soutache, with immediate effect on feldmützen to produce (in fact not so much, condidering introduction of feldmütze 42 adopted july 21th, 1942).
september 8th 1942, HM, Ziff 597 : in order to end incertainty, soutaches on every sidecaps delivered and worn in units have to be removed.
just my 2 cents.
derka

[NZMark]

Hi Derka,
These orders were in reality not strictly adhered to, so unfortunately they are not specific guidlines to judge tropical caps by....
Best Regards,
Mark

[derka]

Hi Derka,
These orders were in reality not strictly adhered to, so unfortunately they are not specific guidlines to judge tropical caps by....
Best Regards,
Mark

hi Mark,
yes, very true, that's why i specified i would not talk about trop sidecaps discussed in this thread.
i just wanted to point that acording reg orders, that needed to be clarified even at this period, it is believable and logical to still find sidecaps factory made with soutache in october or later...

regards
Chris

[Mike Davis]

Comment and photos posted on the behalf of B.N. Singer:

“As requested by member Tim O’Keefe in post #30. An Original DAK piped overseas hat (dated 842) exhibiting an example of “Brandt” sloppy manufacturing, one of several examples encountered.”

[B. N. Singer]

Comment and photos posted on the behalf of B.N. Singer:

My thanks to the moderator (Mike Davis) for his assistance.

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

i will not say anything about trop sidecaps.
just few precisions :
july 10th 1942, HM, Ziff 597 : decision to stop using soutache, with immediate effect on feldmützen to produce (in fact not so much, condidering introduction of feldmütze 42 adopted july 21th, 1942).
september 8th 1942, HM, Ziff 597 : in order to end incertainty, soutaches on every sidecaps delivered and worn in units have to be removed.
just my 2 cents.
derka

This is both an interesting and useful thread,

derka has posted an excellent piece of information here. This shows clearly the need for a follow up order in September 1942 because the order issued in July 1942 was being ignored, not understood or there was confusion at both the manufacturing level and the front line.

Even after this order of 8 Sept 42 not every body followed it because it took time to get circulated and some just simply ignored it because they liked the soutache or did not have time to comply.

One German Panzer veteran who I got to meet showed me his cap and explained how he got the soutache field applied because the cap they issued him with did not have one. Seemingly this was tolerated in his unit as a mark of tradition (no doubt about it being an after addition either, the job was neat & tidy but no one was trying to make it look like factory application if you can understand what I am saying).

Another German veteran told me that it was not until he got leave in 1944 that he remove his on the train going home. He assured me that on his part of the Russian front, having a soutache or not having a soutache was not really what one was worried about in the struggle to stay alive (this had come up in conversation as I looked through his photo album, some photos from the 1944 period clearly show a soutache on his cap where as others did not so I asked him the reason).

derka's addition to this thread shows quite clearly how a Brandt made in the first half of August 1942 can have a soutache and be perfectly within the regulations of the time where as one made in the second half of August 1942 may have never had one. The bigger question mark in my mind are those tropical sidecaps made after August 1942 with soutache, are some of those in fact still factory applied soutaches ???

Another important question is when were the liners stamped with the manufacturer's name & date ?
---is it when the liner itself is made as a part to go in a cap or is it when production of the cap is finished off ?
---i.e were there cap bodies made and the soutache attached earlier in production before November 1942 but the cap was not completed having their liners added until November 1942 ?
These point about production may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, some makers may have used a "job cost system" where caps were made one by one from start to finish as required. Other makers however may have used a "standard cost system" where component parts were made on mass and stored in bins until used in final production. I am told that makers using this bin system applied their stamps when the liner was made not when the cap was finished.

Chris

[derka]

Chris,

reading new adds, i realized i made a little writing error,
the exact reference for the order of september is :
september 8th 1942, HM Ziff 796
other informations are ok.
my apologies for this.
derka

[90th Light]

Chris,

reading new adds, i realized i made a little writing error,
the exact reference for the order of september is :
september 8th 1942, HM Ziff 796
other informations are ok.
my apologies for this.
derka

Thank you for this additional clarification derka

and yes of course the two orders could not have the same "HM Ziff" number.

Again your research and accuracy in this matter is appreciated plus it confirms how a cap dated 8/ 42 with a soutache can be perfectly acceptable provided it is applied in the correct fashion and is a period soutache. The point which B.N.Singer makes about some period applied soutaches by Brandt being "sloppy" in this regard is an equally important consideration in this matter.

A very constructive thread,

Chris

[billbert]

I know LONG before add ons came to vogue I ve seen good 11/42 hans brandts with factory soutache occasionally ..Billbert
An aquaintance has a vet given from co worker freebie pioneer with 8 or 11 date..

[Bond]

Thanks Derka, Chris, Bilbert, Mike and Mr Singer for still contributing to this thread

It would be good if anyone can show some pics of an original 11/42 Brandt with a pre beehive provenance, if possible.

I can see the logic in 8/42 Brandt's in some instances being original, though I do see 8/42's without soutaches. I'm not sure it is possible to stretch the logic to include 11/42's, but I am as always, happy to be proved mistaken.

Jerry

[Tim O'Keefe]

Just wanted to say thankYou to Mike and Bryon for the photo of the Brandt with the sloppy application and it is that. If i were to see this one on a web site for sale i would be doubtful still...that it was added postwar., not saying it is, just looks like crap.

Sorry have been away from the Forum and will be gone again for a while. As long as the Cup is on. watchin the beautiful game...

one world, one game
Tim

[tropenmilitaria]

watchin the beautiful game...

one world, one game
Tim

I'm with you Tim

[FredBayer]

Hello all. Saw many of the 842 Hans Brandt caps at the first two Max Shows in St. Louis in the late 70's. Between 4 or 5 dealers there must have been 100+. Obviously all part of the cache discovered in the early 70's. They were going for $50-$60. None of these 842 caps had soutaches. Now, they seem to all have soutaches. In my humble opinion, the soutaches were added post-war.
Regards, Fred