dak sidecaps with added soutache?

[Bond]

Hi, I've seen these 3 caps for sale, all dated after july 42 and I think they are either complete fakes, or more likely, IMO, originals with added soutaches. Any opinions would be appreciated.
I'll post the first 2 now and the other later.

thanks, Jerry

[Bond]

And the third cap.

tahnks, Jerry

[Bond]

On the panzer you can see in the pic where the stitching comes through the lining, IMO, for the added soutache.

Jerry

[Seb777]

Your caps are original, hard to tell about the soutache...more details requested....thanks.

[Andy C.]

Hey Jerry, caps look good, but with added soutaches. IMO

[Bond]

Your caps are original, hard to tell about the soutache...more details requested....thanks.

Hi SEB,
As I said in the first post, caps of this date should not have a soutache and these in my opinion have had them added in an attrempt to make them more valuable. They are not mine, I have seen them for sale and wanted to bring them to the attention of the WAF, as they are for sale at a price suggesting they are not messed with.

Jerry

[RUHL13]

I would say post war applied...just my 2 cents.
Regards,
Gary

[90th Light]

The Hans Brandt cap dated "8 42", size "58" in post number 2 is original and period. the black pioneer soutache is most likely original to the cap.

These caps were part of the now famous "Beehive" find in the south of Germany originally from the railway side shed and discovered by Militaria collectors in the 1970's. A farmer had found them in Railway storage after the war and was over time cutting them up to insulate his beehives.

Sadly he had already cut up a lot of the M40's will the visor first but a few of those were also found. Many of the side caps date August 1942 and before still had factory applied soutaches on them and from what I cap see in the one image number 2, this looks to be one of them and would be the cap to get because the pioneer ones were not comman at all amongst those found.

Of course to be certain I would need a hands on to check if it is machine applied or hand applied but most of the ones date August 42 and earlier had soutaches. Some even had 1941 dates.

Even unissued the ones with factory soutaches are worth having and represent the best buys in tropical soutached caps in the market today,

Chris

[Bond]

The Hans Brandt cap dated "8 42" in post number 2 is original and period. the black pioneer soutache is most likely original to the cap.

Of course to be certain I would need a hands on but most of the ones date August 42 and earlier had soutaches. Some even had 1941 dates.

Even unissued the ones with factory soutaches are worth having and represent the best buys in tropical soutached caps in the market today,

Chris

Hi Chris and thanks for responding and the same to Gary and Andy and anyone else I've forgotten, but what about the november 42 dated caps? The soutaches look the same as the pioneer, as far as I can tell, except the colour. And they should not have a soutache in august, though I accept it might be possible-any thing might be- but it is unlikely. If others have knowledge of aug 42 brandt caps with period applied soutaches then I'll happily consider the pioneer as all original.
Partly, guilt by association for the pioneer, unless you or anyone else thinks that nov 42 caps would have a soutache? In Fiqueroa's Tropical headgear p45-48 there is a soutached cap with RBNr. and 43 date-very odd, IMO-, as well as an aug 42 Brandt with no soutache, p49-52.

Jerrry

[90th Light]

Hi Chris and thanks for responding and the same to Gary and Andy and anyone else I've forgotten, but what about the november 42 dated caps? The soutaches look the same as the pioneer, as far as I can tell, except the colour. And they should not have a soutache in august, though I accept it might be possible-any thing might be- but it is unlikely. If others have knowledge of aug 42 brandt caps with period applied soutaches then I'll happily consider the pioneer as all original.
Partly, guilt by association for the pioneer, unless you or anyone else thinks that nov 42 caps would have a soutache? In Fiqueroa's Tropical headgear p45-48 there is a soutached cap with RBNr. and 43 date-very odd, IMO-, as well as an aug 42 Brandt with no soutache, p49-52.

Jerrry

The November 1942 caps are an issue for sure but August 1942 is not such a problem,

keep in mind that the order was given in July 1942 to remove the soutache. Not all the factories would have received that in time to alter all of their work in progress so a cap dated August 1942 may still have been in the process of being constructed and finished off in July 1942. The soutache may already have been in place or was being put in place by the "Brandt" factory as the orders were being drawn up and made official. Unlikely the factory would have worried about altering what was already made and could safely assume that the quarter-master in stores or soldier in the field would have attended to that.

Would the "Brandt' factory still be applying soutaches in November 1942 when they could now save on time and production cost ? This is most unlikely in my opinion. Also keep in mind that Johannes Floch was involved in the finding of these caps in the late 1970's so that may or may not explain it.

August 1942 is the last acceptable month for a soutache but I have seen the odd case where a German soldier applied a soutache themselves after the order in July 1942 which was against the rules but they wanted the look . The November 1942 caps which you show do not look to be an example of that however. Look at the 8/ 42 cap in post number 2, you can see a clear sewing line down the middle of the soutache which does not look to be so distinct in the 11/ 42 caps in post number 1. The 11/ 42 caps appear to have very losely applied soutache but the the 8/ 42 looks correct from what I can tell from that image but I would need a hands on to be certain or at least bigger close up images of the pioneer soutache (but it has "real" potential),

Chris

[RUHL13]

I do agree the August 42 could be period, but the November?
Here is my 1142...no soutache, and never did, and the same maker.
But as stated, anything is possible.
Regards,
Gary

[Bond]

Here is the Aug 42 Brandt cap from Fiqueroa's Tropical Headgear, which has no soutache. This is not conclusive I agree, but must cast some doubt on the soutached aug 42 brandt's?

Any other opinions?

Jerry

PS B&W photos were the order of the day

The pics were too big and I did'nt notice, DOH!!!

[Bond]

And here is the image from Fiqueroa

Jerry

[90th Light]

Here is the Aug 42 Brandt cap from Fiqueroa's Tropical Headgear, which has no soutache. This is not conclusive I agree, but must cast some doubt on the soutached aug 42 brandt's?

Any other opinions?

Jerry

PS B&W photos were the order of the day

The pics were too big and I did'nt notice, DOH!!!

I think caution/ investigation is certainly the name of the game with one these,

If one was finished off by Brandt in late July 1942 or early August 1942 then it might still have had a soutache if it was part of a work in progress going through at the time when the order to remove was received

but if it was made in the second half of August 1942 then it could be more than likely that it is the first of the production runs with no soutache.

Study the soutache, is it properly applied as per how Brandt would factory apply them or is it a sloppy application ???

May be one of the other collectors will remember if any Brandt's 8/ 42 were found with soutache or was it just the Clemens Wagner's which had them.

At one stage someone posted some images of the total find including the belts found & billed M40's. I think they had a tie made from the cut up materials found in the hives,

Chris

[Bond]

I think caution/ investigation is certainly the name of the game with one these,

If one was finished off by Brandt in late July 1942 or early August 1942 then it might still have had a soutache if it was part of a work in progress going through at the time when the order to remove was received

but if it was made in the second half of August 1942 then it could be more than likely that it is the first of the production runs with no soutache.

Study the soutache, is it properly applied as per how Brandt would factory apply them or is it a sloppy application ???

Chris

Hi Chris, I dont have a Brandt with a soutache to hand or any pics that I know are Brandt soutached caps and the pics from the seller do not clearly show this, though the panzer and also this green soutached aug 42 brandt appear to show signs of tampering. Notice the tie loops at the front on the green soutache have been cut and also I think I can see extra stiching coming through the lining, though it is in the wrong area, I think.
Also. Kurtz's Afrikakorps book says the order to remove or no longer apply soutaches was may 42, not july as I said earlier.

Jerry


PS, It should be noted that I have no agenda with the seller and I am merely trying to determine the originality of the caps in question, as I might want to purchase such an example in the future