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**90th Light** · 04-06-2010, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by billbert View Post

Chris
Thanks for some added incite.. the eagle looks correct to me except its got some wear to it that makes it look like the crappy embroidered nightmare often seen.. look at the cockade stitch how it almost dips into the body stitching..look too again at the coloration of brighter newness where material the soutache dips into the bill.. The soutache looks like the crappy pastel colored 80 s stuff used on the higher end fakes from eurpoe with correct insgnia but they were poorly size marked only..this one has definitely a shadow of makers info THANKS for reminding me about the early LAGO caps and their unusual colors..The fact it was traveling with those other 2 caps doesnt bode well for this one BUT drop me a line when it goes on the Bazzaar cause I wanna be 1st in line to buy it !! JMHO Billbert

Hello Billbert,

If I understand what you are saying here, you think that the eagle and the cockade are period and probably original to the cap ?

You do not like the soutache because it reminds you of what was seen on the caps found in Poland in the 1980's with aluminium grommets and a size only marking on the inside ?

Hope I have got this correct.

LAGO tropical M40's did sometimes use that type of soutache however. It always seems to have a white/ cream colored inner core to it with an artifical silk spun around the exterior.

Often also a LAGO cap has only a size marking because the LAGO maker name and date have washed out quickly due to use or dampness.

LAGO caps more often than not have correct zinc grommets like those.

The fact that this cap has the correct first model cockade then I would give it a chance of also in fact being the correct original soutache for a LAGO cap and original to that cap but I would need a hands on inspection to be sure.

I hope Ed can put up some more images of this cap so we can see more because again you raise a good point about the blue-grey threads in the eagle being fluffed up and frayed. This could be because the cap has been washed at some stage and the eagle scrubed to get it clean.

Basically I think we are in agreement that this cap has "real" potential and yes I too think that I can see a washed out rectangular makers stamp (Is it a LAGO ????).

Good spotting

,

Chris

p.s. some LAGO caps do have soutache where both the inner core and the outer threads are the same color but on others athough the inner core and outer thread are the same shade of color, the inner thread can be darker eg a soutache with a Jager green inner core but Panzer.G. lime green exterior threads. All depends which LAGO maker made which part of the cap as to what they used at the time.

**Tim O'Keefe** · 04-07-2010, 01:02 AM

From the photos, I like the cap itself. Grommets look real good. Honest wear to the interior too.

But that soutache is trouble, to me to thin, understand that there are some thin soutached caps that are ok, but also just the color purple raises my eyebrows....enlisted man with a cap worn this much with purple piping hmmm.
Though the stitch line through the base of the soutache looks ok too using the same thread. Not added like so many nowadays.

Chris, You think the cockade is the first model and i would differ to You on this.
The application is a little sloppy, stitching drifting off the cockade etc but have seen this before once in a while.

The Eagle is blurry but the area around the eagle is not from the photos so really not sure about it but it could be good. First impression is a good cap with bad insignia, but now not so sure at all except for that soutache....

Agree better photos are needed of the insignia to make a better judgement.

**90th Light** · 04-07-2010, 01:14 AM

Hello Tim,

On my monitor the soutache looks to be a shade of pink not purple so here we have the challenge with computer images. May-be Ed could confirm.

I see all the features of a first model cockade. What makes you think that it is not ????. In fact I am holding two of my ones which have been taken off caps and comparing with it now, honestly it looks right but again clearer images are needed to be sure.

Good to touch base and I hope things are well with you,

Chris

**Tim O'Keefe** · 04-07-2010, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Hello Tim,

On my monitor the soutache looks to be a shade of pink not purple so here we have the challenge with computer images. May-be Ed could confirm.

I see all the features of a first model cockade. What makes you think that it is not ????. In fact I am holding two of my ones which have been taken off caps and comparing with it now, honestly it looks right but again clearer images are needed to be sure.

Good to touch base and I hope things are well with you,

Chris

Thanks Chris

Was wondering why nobody mentioned the purple. so it must be my pc side

As far as the cockade i was not clear in my post. Have never seen a good early one in person and your knowledge is extensive so thats why i differ to your opinion on this one & it does not look like the second standard style.

Am very well, as the Toon is going back to the pitch

**90th Light** · 04-07-2010, 02:11 AM

Originally posted by Tim O'Keefe View Post

Thanks Chris

Was wondering why nobody mentioned the purple. so it must be my pc side

As far as the cockade i was not clear in my post. Have never seen a good early one in person and your knowledge is extensive so thats why i differ to your opinion on this one & it does not look like the second standard style.

Am very well, as the Toon is going back to the pitch

Thanks Tim,

I understand what you are saying now.

If you think first model tropical cockades are a challenge then try picking the first model tropical eagles. They are worth keeping an eye open for however and very desirable too.

Clearer pictures of this will greatly help us both but I think things could be right. Then again take one of the really good repro tropical bevo eagles and fluff that up so I remain open minded.

Good to know all is ok,

Chris

**Bond** · 04-07-2010, 02:44 AM

Hi, I had another look at the eagle last night before bed and wondered, as others have, whether it might be a good one, just worn and faded, maybe reapplied, as the stitching is different to the rest and to the cockade. I realise that this might occur on real caps, but better pics of the insignia should help, as would more of the interior of the cap behind the insignia and of the grommets.

Jerry

**afrikasandman** · 04-07-2010, 12:43 PM

Hey guys,

figured I should lay in my minimal knowledge here. The cap itself looks solid to me with no issues. Cockade is a 1st model for sure and I think it could be original to this cap. Looks like it sits into it just enough and the wavy stitching isn't always a bad thing... perhaps the person sewing it got a bit lazy or tired but we will never know. As far as the soutache.... im really out on this, the color looks purple to me on my mac monitor (with ya there Tim) but it does appear too thing and very pastelly... im not liking it very much, though it seems that there is a noticable disparity in the color where the soutache goes into the cap.... seems like it was perhaps added later. But if its post war added someone went to a lot of trouble to open up the cap slip it in there and then sew across it to keep it in place. Eagle for me looks like a roughed up embroidery fake and if you look it doesn't sit that well into the cap itself. Does appear to be machine sewn though and I don't see evidence of the cap being opened up inside at all to do this so I find myself baffeled by this cap. Love the cap and 1st model cockade but am perplexed by the other aspects of the cap. Matt

**90th Light** · 04-07-2010, 05:27 PM

The major issue with this cap is that we only have one not so clear image of the insignia. Clearer images of the eagle, cockade and soutache would answer a lot of the question marks.

The eagle is a bevo example, no doubt about that but the image is blurry it is not a fake woven one. The question however is to check if it is fluffed up bevo original or a fluffed up excellent reproduction ???

The soutache which looks a shade of pink on my computer is the correct width applied at a 90 degree angle in the correct fashion. This concern about it being too bright and pastel color needs to take into account that in 1941 the Germans were changing extensively from using a cotton thread to artifical silk. To my eye and based on a judgement made from one not so clear computer image then this soutache is perfectly acceptable for a tropical M40 made in the second half of 1941 or the first half of 1942 using artifical silk for the outer layer of the soutache. Such soutache may have been used post war but lets not lose sight of the fact that it was also used originally at the time.

The fact that this cap has first model cockade tells me that the eagle and soutache have every chance of being period and original to the cap. Try to find a first model cockade on its own and you will see what I mean. I know collectors who would give their first born to get one of those and it would be very rare to find an M40 with a first model cockade only left on it but not impossible. As far as the stitching goes, well it was war time production to met the need a growing shortage not the production of grade A mens suits. A LAGO production would explain the difference in the color of the threads used.

Will be very interesting indeed to see what we have right and what we have wrong when Ed posts some more images but these are my picks. Also there is the faint remains of the makers stamp so held in the right light one may be able to read who the maker is.

What is needed now is more images so please come in Ed,

Chris

**Ed Hicks** · 04-07-2010, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Hello Tim,

On my monitor the soutache looks to be a shade of pink not purple so here we have the challenge with computer images. May-be Ed could confirm.

I see all the features of a first model cockade. What makes you think that it is not ????. In fact I am holding two of my ones which have been taken off caps and comparing with it now, honestly it looks right but again clearer images are needed to be sure.

Good to touch base and I hope things are well with you,

Chris

Soutache is pink

**s.d.** · 04-07-2010, 06:05 PM

Hi there,
In my opinion it's a good cap messed with post war.
Eagle is fake I've seen the same type but as a breast eagle,cockade
might be good but need better photos.
Don't like that soutache at all,to 'shiney' for my liking.You always see
that type of soutache on questionable caps
Sam

**Ed Hicks** · 04-07-2010, 06:08 PM

Maker stamp appears to be much faded and I will try for better photos soon. Ed

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

The major issue with this cap is that we only have one not so clear image of the insignia. Clearer images of the eagle, cockade and soutache would answer a lot of the question marks.

The eagle is a bevo example, no doubt about that but the image is blurry it is not a fake woven one. The question however is to check if it is fluffed up bevo original or a fluffed up excellent reproduction ???

The soutache which looks a shade of pink on my computer is the correct width applied at a 90 degree angle in the correct fashion. This concern about it being too bright and pastel color needs to take into account that in 1941 the Germans were changing extensively from using a cotton thread to artifical silk. To my eye and based on a judgement made from one not so clear computer image then this soutache is perfectly acceptable for a tropical M40 made in the second half of 1941 or the first half of 1942 using artifical silk for the outer layer of the soutache. Such soutache may have been used post war but lets not lose sight of the fact that it was also used originally at the time.

The fact that this cap has first model cockade tells me that the eagle and soutache have every chance of being period and original to the cap. Try to find a first model cockade on its own and you will see what I mean. I know collectors who would give their first born to get one of those and it would be very rare to find an M40 with a first model cockade only left on it but not impossible. As far as the stitching goes, well it was war time production to met the need a growing shortage not the production of grade A mens suits. A LAGO production would explain the difference in the color of the threads used.

Will be very interesting indeed to see what we have right and what we have wrong when Ed posts some more images but these are my picks. Also there is the faint remains of the makers stamp so held in the right light one may be able to read who the maker is.

What is needed now is more images so please come in Ed,

Chris

**Ed Hicks** · 04-07-2010, 06:16 PM

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**90th Light** · 04-07-2010, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by Ed Hicks View Post

a

Thanks Ed,

on this one additional image (post number 27) I can say that I am now 90% certain that you have an original eagle and it is possibly an early one. I do not think it is a first model however but early. Are the threads "blue-grey" in color or "powder-blue" in color ???

and could you post a close up of the chest, claws and swaz of the eagle

I also like the way the condition of the soutache, eagle & cockade match the condition of the cap and grommets. Every chance that this one is 100% period but again more images and close helps will help in a final decision

Many thanks, Chris

**Mark Gibson** · 04-07-2010, 07:06 PM

When I first looked at this cap with my very tired eyes I believed the cap to be good but with all fake insignia. After having looked at this one long and hard I am more than convinced that the cap is fine, the eagle is a fake, the soutache is post war added but the cockade is okay. On my first look I immediately thought the cockade to be a example seen on a number of fake caps that were for sale at the some time early last year that were exposed as fakes, but I was wrong. Having compared it to a number of early caps I'm more than convinced that it is original.

I don't think this is a Lago cap at all, examples of which I've only seen with the soutache inserted into slits above the stitch line. Mind you this is just the examples that I've seen and studied. The application of the soutache on this cap is definitely a post war job in my opinion. The soutache ends have been stuffed into the seam and poorly attached. Compare this application to any number of original soutached caps and you will clearly see the difference. Compare it to caps with reapplied soutache and you will immediately see why I believe this to be so.

Ed, wherever this discussion may lead, you still have a good cap but with some post war additions. I'm sure that you'll still have collectors sending you messages with offers just to secure a original earlier model cap, as opposed to all the later examples which are seen much more often.

Take care

Mark

**90th Light** · 04-07-2010, 07:47 PM

Hello Mark,

why do you think the eagle is post war ??? A close up of the the areas I have requested and the curved wing feathers will be revealing.

A lot will hinge on the soutache being tightly machine stitched to the cap or loosely hand stitched in a fashion to try and look like a machine stitch. Again a close up of the stitching all the way along is needed and Ed needs to tug it outward to see if it is loose or tight to the cap. Certainly shows signs of having been there while the cap has been crushed flat for a good period of time.

Another factor which never gets much of a mention is the fact that the DAK in Afrika ran out of caps and shoulder boards in 1942 and they under took all sorts of measures to get round this such as field made & altering sizes. One simple measure was to get a cap in your size at the time and change the soutache so collectors of these need to always keep in mind that one can have perfectly good cap with a perfectly changed period soutache. By 1942, this was not that uncommon and one of the reasons why they gave the official order to remove the soutache all together in July 1942. Not that every one followed that either.

One finds a variety of production techniques used on LAGO caps and they can have the soutache applied both ways. The way the soutache is applied to this cap is a simplified production step which saves having to cut the small inserts into the body of the cap. I agree however that we have not proved that this is a LAGO cap so I remain open minded on this point and to the possibility of the soutache being post war applied.

I look forward to any close up's which Ed can post because it will be interesting to see what we have right and what we have wrong but the more I see the more I like,

Chris

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