Question about pink piped LW nco peaked caps.

[giorgio]

Hi folks,
I think that Bob's cap is another good one.......(thank you Bob and thank you Leroy for posting 'em ).
So....these caps exist...........
But now.....how you cosider them: engineering......or some other branch?
Regards
Giorgio

[Leroy]

I believe this branch piping is for Engineering.

[MattS]

According to TM-E 30-451, piping color for Luftwaffe engineer troops (Ingenieurkorps der Luftwaffe) is listed as "pink", so that would get my vote also. Rare caps to be sure!

[Leroy]

Anyone have any further thoughts?

I will say that the "pebbled" visor underside (on the ones sold by Floch) LOOKS way too modern for my tastes. Combined with never having seen that surface on another, for-sure, wartime piece, but instead seeing it on hard-to-find pieces, my skepticism factor is way "up there".

One thing that gives me pause, having actually seen and held one of these from Floch. The body of the cap, including lining, sweatband and sweatshield, is PERFECT. The cloth is right, the sewing is right...the body FEELS right. If these caps had a standard visor, the doubt factor (except for the doubt factor associated with ANY scarce piece) would be insignificant. The correct visor is a relatively simple and inexpensive thing to find, especially when a cap is being sold for real money (I think the one I saw was being sold for @ $1300). Why on earth get everything else right and then scrimp on an easy to find and very obvious component?

Does ANYONE know the provable truth about these visors?

[billbert]

Guess you d just have to take me at my word from post 10 Leroy for now..Billbert

[Leroy]

Billbert, I DO take you at your word!

These caps certainly appeared to have existed. The only question I have now centers around the type with the strange pebbled visor underside. I'd like to know the truth about THOSE!

[J Melvin]

Paul R wrote an excellent article on the Luftwaffe Engineers and pink waffenfarbe on another forum. The one thing that stuck out to me and I have always believed is as follows (Paul, I hope you don't mind me quoting):

"By decree of the the Fuhrer and Reichs Chancellery on 20Apr1935, the "Corps of Engineers of the Luftwaffe" was created. It was further deemed on 18Oct1935 that the members of this newly formed corps were not soldiers but "members of the Luftwaffe" with a status very similar to that of Officials.

This was an Officer only career field.

Requirements for entry into the Corps of Engineers changed several times, yet the basic requirement was a University(equiv to a Masters Degree?) or College(Basic four year, Bach. Degree) degree in engineering. University graduates were brought in at the rank of Fl. Hauptingenieur and College degree qualified for the rank of Fl. Ingenieur [added by me: equivalent to a leutnant]."

According to the same thread, these were the ranks and numbers in late 1944 and at the end of the war:

"Generalingenieure: 18/0
Oberstingenieure: 100/1
Fl-Oberstabsingenieure: 375/13
Fl-Stabsingenieure: 980/907
Fl-Hauptingenieure: 697/738
Fl-Oberingenieure: 322/643
Fl-Ingenieure: 10/1,474

Total: 2,502/ 3,776"

The few other times that I've seen the pink piped caps for sale were on British militaria sites and always with officer's chincords for aspirants. In every case, these were high quality reproduction caps.

So, my own previous research and Paul's excellent thread are what I base my opinion on. Logical? Maybe...maybe not. But, having owned at one time every conceivable waffenfarbe color that I believed existed in Luftwaffe caps, this was one color that I never put in my collection.

[Leroy]

Jack,
That is excellent and very thought-provoking information.
I, too, have owned (and still do) every waffenfarbe color piped EM LW cap that I am aware of, including the elusive light blue, but do not have the pink. Yet, we have reputable forum members with knowledge of caps who have, or have had, them. What a quandry.
Best,
Leroy

[musketiii]

There is a fine example in "German Headgear in WW II" vol 1,page 220. Also,I have several fotos of similar caps,NCO rank,,one sold by Hermann Auction. Regards

[giorgio]

I everyone,
That's a really interesting thread....
Just my two cents:

"By decree of the the Fuhrer and Reichs Chancellery on 20Apr1935, the "Corps of Engineers of the Luftwaffe" was created. It was further deemed on 18Oct1935 that the members of this newly formed corps were not soldiers but "members of the Luftwaffe" with a status very similar to that of Officials.

This was an Officer only career field.

1) In the Third Reich everythings were under some regulation..... we know how many cm under the poket they must put a medal..... In this case a "Corps of Engineers " was created without a word about which kind of uniform they have to wear ?
2)I have read that with an order of 4 january 1943, modified 10 july 1944,
new farbe for newly LW field divisions were established, and there was the pink for antitank battalions...........in this case this farbe become even rarest....
Do you know something more about this order?
Warmest regards
Giorgio

[J Melvin]

Giorgio, follow this link for more on the article by Paul on Luftwaffe engineers. It showed up in a thread on collartabs for the group: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...waffe+engineer. Uniform regulations can be found in the thread on another forum mentioned there.

Also, I will unequivocally state that having studied Luftwaffe field divisions now for close to 10 years, in my opinion, there are no pink piped peaked caps associated with them. I also do not believe that there is a green piped one - which to me has the closest possibility to have existed. Too late in the war. Never made.

[Leroy]

Without going too far afield here, which shades of green do you believe existed, Jack?

[J Melvin]

Leroy, imho, two shades: Admin and ATC. I didn't word that very well above. Peaked caps for field division members do not make sense in my opinion. The field divisions were formed too late for peaked caps to be attributed to them specifically. And, after their incorporation into the Heer command structure, the waffenfarbe changed to white for infantry. Only way that I'd ever accept (and eat) a green piped cap as field division is if it was properly unit stamped (unlikely since it would be a late cap) and handed to me by the old jager along with his soldbuch showing he was in a field division. Then, I'd still be highly skeptical.

[Leroy]

Thanks, Jack. I agree with you 100%.
Best,
Leroy

[Sayle F]

ebay cap

Funky one