Panzer m43

[90th Light]

Chris, for the record. You are the only one that believes these caps are original. To pretend the opinions are split evenly is laughable at most. To the reason why you are pursuing this so vigorously, one can only guess. Jacques

Hello Jacques

I have had more postive responses than I ever imagined I was going to get. One even admitted that he was too scared to post his cap because he did not think it was his place to question or upset the experts.

Never had that problem myself and I never stated at any time that the devide was 50/50. To be honest I have no idea of the percentages but there are those who do believe and those who do not for sure plus a few on the fence.

My reason for pursuing this is easy to explain and totally above board, "to investigate in some detail and find out if Halfar did in fact make Panzer M43's"

I can however understand your feelings of concern that your cap is not meeting with 100% approval but the fact remains that there has to be some original Carl Halfar M43's beyond a dozen or more Org. Todt examples.

This was after all, one of the larger cap makers in Germany in the period up to May 1945 so what were they doing between 1943 to 1945 ?

Explain that and you have the answer to your question which started all of this,

Chris

[BenVK]

Ok then Jacques. I'll put it another way. Just because you've made up your mind and are not interested anymore does not mean you can ridicule someone else like Chris who wants to do more research.

[jacquesf]

Ok then Jacques. I'll put it another way. Just because you've made up your mind and are not interested anymore does not mean you can ridicule someone else like Chris who wants to do more research.

Ben, nobody is ridiculing anyone. I am just concerned that a situation is being created where highly questionable items are being justified without any solid evidence. This creates a situation against which these items can be sold as the real thing, legitimized against arguments such as these, to the detriment of collectors out there.

If Chris wants to pursue the Halfar made m43's, that is his prerogative and a good thing. However it should only be declared the real deal if substantive proof and evidence to support that, has been put forward. Not before or the other way round. Btw the question that started this thread has been answered a long time ago. Jacques PS. Ben, I hope you feel better soon.

[John Hodgin]

Ben, nobody is ridiculing anyone. I am just concerned that a situation is being created where highly questionable items are being justified without any solid evidence. This creates a situation against which these items can be sold as the real thing, legitimized against arguments such as these, to the detriment of collectors out there.

If Chris wants to pursue the Halfar made m43's, that is his prerogative and a good thing. However it should only be declared the real deal if substantive proof and evidence to support that, has been put forward. Not before or the other way round.

Well said Jacques. And no offense intended towards anyone, research is needed and valuable here. However endless speculation without any concrete proof only muddies the waters.

John

[90th Light]

Jacques,

the only features of these Carl Halfar M43 caps I have not been able to explain is

1/ the makers stamps

2/ where the caps were found and why a certain dealer got most of them

3/ why some of these caps have been stamped with fake Russian stamps

4/ why no advanced collectors have a veteran example beyond reasonable doubt

If you go back and refresh your memory by re-reading my postings, you will find that I have exaplained all the other characteristics of these caps.

Now I can not comment on this being accepted by all but I think it would be fair based on what I have put forward that these Carl Halfar's do in fact have a very good chance of being the real deal.

I accept that I can not at this stage prove this beyond reasonable doubt but these certainly are not now being totally dismissed as fakes like they once were.

If they are in fact fake which some one may yet also prove beyond reasonable doubt then they are one of the best fakes out there and many have had to have a good long think with the source of them perhaps being the deciding factor

As you say, if we are going to say something is original then lets prove it but like wise if we are going to say fake then lets also prove it and the fact that one does or does not like a dealer is in fact not proof in its self.

Now before you start letting me know how tired you are of it all let me also repeat that I have stated more than once that I can see some differences between yours and mine but are these differences between the fake and the real deal or differences between 1943 production or 1944 production ?

With respect, Chris

[jacquesf]

Chris how about some real technical study and insights on the cap, such as,
the fabric the liner is made off (so called t-shirt fabric)
the stitching used on the cap,
the black wool fabric the cap is made off,
the absence of bias on the scallop,
the application of the pull downs and the fabric they are made of,
the wear patterns or lack of on these caps, inside and out
the original insignia found on them,
the numerous different maker marks, found on poor fakes and so-called originals
indentification and listing of confirmed accepted originals and comparisons with those etc, Jacques.

PS. No one would want this cap of mine to be original , more than I would.

[90th Light]

Chris how about some real technical study and insights on the cap, such as,
the fabric the liner is made off (so called t-shirt fabric)
the stitching used on the cap,
the black wool fabric the cap is made off,
the absence of bias on the scallop,
the application of the pull downs and the fabric they are made of,
the wear patterns or lack of on these caps, inside and out
the original insignia found on them,
the numerous different maker marks, found on poor fakes and so-called originals etc, Jacques. PS. No one would want this cap of mine to be original , more than I would.

Ok based on my example;

1/ Liner Fabric, not common but more examples of this being used in period caps and boards are coming to light

2/ Stitching, dark blue grey which turns to ash when burnt and of period spacing between stitches

3/ Black Wool, matches perfectly other period caps known to be 100% correct

4/ Bias, white bias present of correct material

5/ Wear Pattern, shows real wear on both the outside and the inside in line and appriopriate with each other

6/ Insignia, original eagle stitched on in the same fashion as my Halfar tropical M40, original LW cockade hand applied.

7/ Other Fakes, all makers stamps have been copied at some stage. (some more than others)

My hope is also that yours is in fact original and I am not alone in that. Again I repeat my empathy with what you are feeling about yours but until we are certain about what a real Halfar M43 looks like then how can we be sure ?

The greatest question any one can ask in the search for knowledge is "why" so I agree with John totally that research is the answer which is the very reason to keep this thread alive with examples of Halfars/ other caps being posted.

"Why" is it real verses "Why" is it not

Again with respect, Chris

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

What if there were actually a good repro being discussed??? I don't want to even think about it.

[Glenn McInnes]

What if there were actually a good repro being discussed??? I don't want to even think about it.

I feel your pain Brother....




Glenn

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

I feel your pain Brother....




Glenn

My only regret is that there is not a character for jumping off a roof or blowing one's brains out.

[BenVK]

Ben, nobody is ridiculing anyone. I am just concerned that a situation is being created where highly questionable items are being justified without any solid evidence. This creates a situation against which these items can be sold as the real thing, legitimized against arguments such as these, to the detriment of collectors out there.

Maybe I'm in the minority here but I don't see it that way all. What I see is a very informative thread where certain people have taken the time to do some proper research in an attempt to find out where these caps came from or are coming from and from that, ascertain whether there is any basis to believe that they, or the caps with similar materials used in their construction, MAY or not be authentic. No one has been trying to justify anything, the information gathered to date has simply been posted here for people to take what they want from. It's not to the "detriment of collectors", it can only be to the advantage of collectors to have as much info as possible so they can make up their own minds.
Nor does this create "a situation against which these items can be sold as the real thing" Every single item has to stand on it's own and whether you believe it to be real or not is totaly the buyers decision. Personnaly, I wouldn't buy any of the Pz caps seen here. I don't believe any are real but that's just my opinion just like it's Chris' opinion that the one he has, stands a good chance OF being real. I don't think he ever written that he is 100% sure or that or that you should all listen to him without question.
That's why I'm getting a bit pissed off with some of the responses because what some of you guys are trying to do is bend Chris to your own way of thinking and in effect, gag him. I've got no allegiance to Chris, don't know him that well but I know he is smarter than most plus honest enough to admit he's wrong should absolute damning evidence surface regarding these Halfar caps but it hasn't. It may never do but at least he's trying to find out for himself and has the balls to not follow the herd which I respect a lot.
Jacques, (no disrespect, I still love you big man ) you seemed to have based a large part of your decision to buy the cap on the basis that the seller said it was good and now you've decided that the cap is bad, again on the basis of some other people's opinions. The irony is that although you're tired of listening to Chris, the man has got an opinion of his own regarding the cap he owns and whether he's right or wrong, at least it's his own opinion. Can you dig it?

Anyway, to try and take things forward a step, and for Gerard who's obviously getting bored as well. What about the WSS sidecaps with the same type of lining? They look pretty good to me from the photos so where does that leave us in regards to this "T-Shirt" material?

[BenVK]

My only regret is that there is not a character for jumping off a roof or blowing one's brains out.

If only that were true in the real world too.

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

If only that were true in the real world too.

Tell us how you REALLY feel Ben. You can't get rid of me that easy.

[Lenny W]

My only regret is that there is not a character for jumping off a roof or blowing one's brains out.

omg i am in

[90th Light]

What if there were actually a good repro being discussed??? I don't want to even think about it.

Come on Gerard,

a collector come dealer of your standing can come up with something more than this.

I have explained point by point based on your summation of Jacquest's Halfar M43 why I believe mine has every chance of being the real deal.

You have stated that you have handled 100's of M43's and you know the finer points instantly plus you are blessed to live in the land of plenty

so where are they ???

In his book "The Collectors Guide To Cloth Third Reich Military Headgear" by Gary Wilkins (Schiffer, 2002) on page 239 item 3 in the "Verified Products" list of the Carl Halfar factory is "M43 Einheitsfeldmutze", Army other ranks, Luftwaffe other ranks"

Now it looks like Wilkins has cited some real deals so surely you must have also.

I find it strange that my Carl Halfar Panzer M43 which is correct in every respect except for the unexplained style of stamp and a less than common lining material is declared fake just like that because some one said followed by someone said who was talking to someone who said.

At the end of the day one of the biggest things held against these caps was the dealer who got his hands on the majority of them out of Russia. Seemly they did not come from Russia at all, he was making them in his basement....late at night.......when no-one was around

This story has gone through certain reference groups of collectors like a Chinese whisper followed by wild fire but my point is lets judge the item not the story.

Balls back in your court Gerard, please now show me a real Carl Halfar M43 so I can stop boring people and learn the error of my ways.

or may be this very close fake of the real deal which I have posted images of is in fact the real deal and some can not see the wood for the trees.

Best regards, Chris