Panzer m43

[Federico Perez]

There is a simple fact for me in all of this, the person who sold the cap to Jacques is not an unknown/private collector, the compleat oposite, a well know one, a moderator on this forum and well respected in the forum/collector comunity he even is about to publish a book on his main area of expertice(and not an easy one) the GD regiment uniforms.

No matter how do you put it or try to look at it, Scott reputation/standing in the collectors community played a big part in the confidence Jacques put on him and his reasurances of the originality of the piece, but again I must bring up the same question as Jacques and others have made before...What is the base for Scott P. reasurance that the M43 is original, his evidence,proof,etc,etc. This is very important and all this fallout is mainly because of Scott. P negative position on discusing or pinpoint the things that make him belive firmly that this hat is original.

It's not a linch mob, is just that if we as a community demand from "dealers" the "real thing" and a honest treatment in the way they do business, the same must apply to those collectors that become public figures in the collector community,give advise and opinions(and defend them) and contribute to the hobby by doing research about the items that make this hobby so fasinating, making them in the eyes of the majority an qualified opinion, again is because this reputation and history of knowledge in the community that most of us venture into spending a lot of money in this hobby. Almost none of us where there when this things(all T.R. fields) where made,used,repaired,confiscated in back in WW2, we have to relay in history,knowledge of it's details and yes....opinions, of course that shoulds be made after the first two!!

I know the world economy is in crissis right now and cash is low at the moment BUT as John Pic said, may be an exchange of a original piece of the same value could end all this, after all if Jacques don't want that piece he could at least sell it and get his cash back in the future, and Scott P. could then accept back the cap he belives is compleatly original, he will be happy and also Jacques.....after all he is is the one who lost double, over $2000 and a fake cap without any value.

A middle point that benefit both parts should be found, but again it must take the two sides, I belive Jacques is willing to do so, let's see if Scott is willing to do so, a mistake could be resolved and both partys can resume the path to enjoy the hobby....my humble opinion of course.

Federico

I know,I know, my grammar is realy bad....

[SgtB]

. . . please note the large lips of the Ubangi Tribal Woman who possesses thicky "piped" lips.

I don't know how you could possibly make such a bold, brash statement as that when that damn beaded dress obscures all the facts! And why is she at the circus with O.J. Simpson?


But seriously, I don't know how anyone can view the side-by-side photos provided by Chris (90th Light), via ebony, of the OT cap and the HG cap and draw the conclusion that one is bad? Christ, the stitchings even overlap in the same locations. Unless I saw a repro that was definitely purchased from Reddick or ATF, etc., I could not possibly say the HG was bad. Yes, the obviously real vet bring-back is a para-military cap that is not uncommon or particularily attractive to combat collectors, and the other is a woefully rare example from an elite panzer unit, but they did (and do) exist. Even the fabrics, jealous of their respective organizations, are remarkably similar, inside and out. Hell, even the stitching of the pull-downs is nearly identical. To say that one is bad just 'ain't gonna cut it' in this situation, without telling me why.

Great comparative photos, guys!

[BenVK]

The codeine must be really kicking in now, I didn't understand a word of that Brian!

[SgtB]

The codeine must be really kicking in now, I didn't understand a word of that Brian!

Well, I'm into my 5th Jack & Coke myself, Ben, so what say we wait for tomorrow to make sense of it all.

[BenVK]

I prefer Jamesons myself but you got yourself a deal.

[JuanS]

Hi

I do not know anything about M 43 caps. As a collector I have make mystakes. I have pieces in my closet that I trully believe they are good, even if friends doubt them. As a collectors we are to blame ourselves of our mistakes,.

Just my opinion

Juan

[djpool]

Gerard,

I wasn't comfortable with the hat in 2007. But these calls are quite subjective and based on experience, how long an item is been on the market etc. Several years before Mike Beaver passed away we were engaged in a trade and he suggested some sites to look at for good items. Of course one of the sites was yours. Correct me if I'm wrong but there was a Mouse Grey wrap set on your site that looked good to me and I told Mike I would be interested. Within seconds he told wrote back and said I didn't want that one. To Mike it was a one looker fake. To me it wasn't. Anyway which ever site it was posted on Mike must have talked to the owner since it was pulled. Now when I see these wraps I know immediately that they're fake. Point is every collector looks at an item through a different set of eyes based on his/her own experiences and education. Just because you can look at an object and form an opinion, doesn't mean everyone looking at the same item will form the same opinion. WR Jim

Not to stir the pot, but I can tell clearly from the photos that this cap is a fake. In hand, I don't care what the markings are, that's it's black, etc. It is not an original M43. It is a modern fake.
No question about it.

[djpool]

Hi Federico,

With all due respect for me we are all equal on this forum: being well known, a moderator or an author doesn't give anyone a special standing in this community. Its experience, knowledge, willingness to share, ability to learn new things etc. that count. Years in the hobby aren't necessarily factors. I've met many youngsters in the hobby that can run rings around some of the older collectors because what they lacked in years they made up by studying hard. Many collectors can master a few facets of the hobby, no collector can master them all. Theres no one better than Scott when it comes to GD insignia and Army Cts because that's where he has focused his education. Outside of those areas he doesn't possess any special powers. Well maybe a few.

If members want to build altars to worship certain members so they can get their militaria blessed that's fine. I prefer to treat everyone as fellow collectors, to learn what their willing to teach, to teach if I have any knowledge to pass on and to disagree when our opinions diverge.

I think I've made my position clear on return policies. The rules on E stand are clearly posted. Private transactions are the business of the buyer and seller. If the rules were followed end of story. If I'm in the minority it should be very easy to change the E stand return policy to reflect that the seller guarantees the originality of an item for life.

WR Jim

PS Federico your English is excellent.

There is a simple fact for me in all of this, the person who sold the cap to Jacques is not an unknown/private collector, the compleat oposite, a well know one, a moderator on this forum and well respected in the forum/collector comunity he even is about to publish a book on his main area of expertice(and not an easy one) the GD regiment uniforms.

No matter how do you put it or try to look at it, Scott reputation/standing in the collectors community played a big part in the confidence Jacques put on him and his reasurances of the originality of the piece, but again I must bring up the same question as Jacques and others have made before...What is the base for Scott P. reasurance that the M43 is original, his evidence,proof,etc,etc. This is very important and all this fallout is mainly because of Scott. P negative position on discusing or pinpoint the things that make him belive firmly that this hat is original.

It's not a linch mob, is just that if we as a community demand from "dealers" the "real thing" and a honest treatment in the way they do business, the same must apply to those collectors that become public figures in the collector community,give advise and opinions(and defend them) and contribute to the hobby by doing research about the items that make this hobby so fasinating, making them in the eyes of the majority an qualified opinion, again is because this reputation and history of knowledge in the community that most of us venture into spending a lot of money in this hobby. Almost none of us where there when this things(all T.R. fields) where made,used,repaired,confiscated in back in WW2, we have to relay in history,knowledge of it's details and yes....opinions, of course that shoulds be made after the first two!!

I know the world economy is in crissis right now and cash is low at the moment BUT as John Pic said, may be an exchange of a original piece of the same value could end all this, after all if Jacques don't want that piece he could at least sell it and get his cash back in the future, and Scott P. could then accept back the cap he belives is compleatly original, he will be happy and also Jacques.....after all he is is the one who lost double, over $2000 and a fake cap without any value.

A middle point that benefit both parts should be found, but again it must take the two sides, I belive Jacques is willing to do so, let's see if Scott is willing to do so, a mistake could be resolved and both partys can resume the path to enjoy the hobby....my humble opinion of course.

Federico

I know,I know, my grammar is realy bad....

[90th Light]

Well may be the concrete is not as rock hard as I had thought. All models and thoeries are subject to review over time that is how any profession, trade or hobby progresses and keeps developing.

In the interest of testing the theory that Carl Halfar did not make Panzer M43's during WW2, I made a hit list of Gerard's summation of Jacques's cap and applied it to my cap. Listed below are my findings and following this I have ask ebony to post some images of the comparative points referred to;

1/ Badges, both the eagle and cockade on my example are original

2/ Lining, not a commonly encountered material at all. Mine shows real wear in line with the exterior of the cap which also shows hard use but it does appear to have been washed as well. I have however found a match with the underside of a LW shoulder board and have included a photo of this. They are a slightly different shade of color but the exact same weave of material.

3/ Stamp, unverified and already discussed. My stamp is very hard to read due to use and wear but why a full name and factory description matching what is found in visor caps by this maker yet no city or RB/RF number ???

4/ Internal band, my cap has an internal band. This is a bit soft because of use and washing but it is definitely there.

5/ Visor shape, matches exactly the shape and size of my Org. Todt example.

6/ Visor rolled edge, hard to say if the roll on mine is on the top or the bottom because of washing and use. If it is on the bottom then is this a final deciding piece of evidence because in my experience you can get a rolled edge on the bottom especially with 1944 or 45 production but it is not common.

7/ Sewing of badges, my eagle is applied with a zig-zag stitch having the correct spacing for Carl Halfar (compared with tropical M40 by this maker). The cockade is hand applied which is correct for an LW cockade.

8/ Wide second line of stitching on the top of the button flap, The spacing on mine is this same distance as the Org. Todt and secures correct bias material behind it.

9/ Black material the cap is made of, Here I have posted some imagines of a comparison with a POW dark blue KM cap. The materials are almost an exact match except for the shade of color. This material is excellent quality of very smooth weave. Does not feel rough to the hand . Both caps have extensive nap wear exactly where you would expect it to be while nap pile remains in all the right places. I have posted several images trying to show this but black is hard to photograph at the best of times. No doubts however that my Halfar is made of correct war time material and it smells right/ old as well.

10/ Size of the piping, I have compared my top seam ("piping" in Gerard's description) with that on a WH M42/43. No concerns or "African lips" on this point for me. An image of this comparison is also posted.

Anyway I will now hand over to ebony to get the additional images posted and continue my discussion when he is finished. Look forward to what others think,

Chris

[ebony]

1 POW Navy on top, Halfar Panzer on bottom

[ebony]

2 POW Navy on left, Halfar Panzer on right

[ebony]

3 Navy on left, Panzer on right. Look hard and you will see the zig-zag stitch on the eagle. Should have done a clearer shot of that. Notice the nap wear showing where it should yet the pile is still there under the flaps and around the badges.

[ebony]

4 Halfar Panzer on top, POW Navy on bottom. Notice the nap in the right places yet the wear on the tops of the caps due use. The top edge of the navy cap has been cut off by the bottom of the photo.

[ebony]

5 Edge of flaps. POW Navy on top, Halfar Panzer on bottom

[ebony]

6 Again edge of flaps. Halfar Panzer on top, POW Navy on bottom. Note the late war type button hole.