New SS Hats

[PMan]

Point # 3

I think I will take this opportunity to re-stress for the hundredth time why you will not find an SS visor marked “Offizer kleiderkasse”.
1. The term “Offizier kleiderkasse” was solely attributed the Heers Offizier kleiderkasse.
2. Erel sold Heer visors both through the kleiderkasse and direct private purchase. The later would not contain the verbiage “Offizier Kleiderkasse”. Since Erel already used shields without these markings why on gods green earth would they use that shield in an SS visor?
3. Every single SS visor that has contained these markings has been proven to have been rebuilt. Not one single legitimate example has been uncovered.

This is interesting and I feel the most compelling piece of evidence against the hat. Point # 3 seems to weigh in as heaviest IMO even though it seems to be a guilt by association matter. I do not believe there is substantial proof that EREL never made an SS hat with OK. We are just assuming this, NO? Does anyone have an EREL directive on this matter? I have a friend with an original vet find EREL. I will have to ask him how it is marked.
Peter

[NTZ]

I noticed the similar material as the top used under the last row of piping. Is this hat a recut, or one that was made from scratch? If from scratch, why make it look like a telermuetze resulting from a recut??

Recut. The older Erel's as in the 1937-39's were all in doeskin an the material under the bottom piping on these were very, very close to the same material as the cap itself.

[NTZ]

This is interesting and I feel the most compelling piece of evidence against the hat. Point # 3 seems to weigh in as heaviest IMO even though it seems to be a guilt by association matter. I do not believe there is substantial proof that EREL never made an SS hat with OK. We are just assuming this, NO? Does anyone have an EREL directive on this matter? I have a friend with an original vet find EREL. I will have to ask him how it is marked.
Peter

If you can find one that breaks # 3 let me know. I have talked to every cap collector from the old guard to the new guard, dealers, you name it. Every one agrees they never seen a real one. If your buddies visor is an SS and a real vet pick up and not the classic BS I with bet $100 all it has is the Erel logo and maybe a distributor marking.

[PMan]

Older Style

Recut. The older Erel's as in the 1937-39's were all in doeskin an the material under the bottom piping on these were very, very close to the same material as the cap itself.

So as an older style hat, it could be a legitimate telermuetze? and not a recut...Perhaps, possible?
Peter

[NTZ]

So as an older style hat, it could be a legitimate telermuetze? and not a recut...Perhaps, possible?
Peter

No, what telemuetuze have you seen made from 1937 or after on an officers or general rank? Erel came out with the class lines in 1937 so the cap can not date any earlier.

[PMan]

Telermuetze

No, what telemuetuze have you seen made from 1937 or after on an officers or general rank? Erel came out with the class lines in 1937 so the cap can not date any earlier.

Maybe I should ask this question differently. Where telermuetze style hats available throughout all years, or were they phased out at some point?

[NTZ]

Peter, I know he is your buddy and this is not an attack on him, just the cap. It is a 110% one looker. When you have to make up stories and excuses for a cap, you’re reaching. I will tell you what. Have your buddy send it to me. I will go through the whole cap, photograph and document every flaw. I will be more than glad it post it all here and then you can critique my findings. I will bet you that the pasteboard in this cap is cardboard. Or something made to look like pasteboard. It is a classic move on these. I can’t remember what it had when I seen it a few years ago. I just remeber laughing and saying, boy that was quick. Like I said, one looker.

[NTZ]

Maybe I should ask this question differently. Where telermuetze style hats available throughout all years, or were they phased out at some point?

Phased out per regs. I can't rember the year but it was much earlier than 37.

[PMan]

Buddies

Peter, I know he is your buddy and this is not an attack on him, just the cap. It is a 110% one looker. When you have to make up stories and excuses for a cap, you’re reaching. I will tell you what. Have your buddy send it to me. I will go through the whole cap, photograph and document every flaw. I will be more than glad it post it all here and then you can critique my findings. I will bet you that the pasteboard in this cap is cardboard. Or something made to look like pasteboard. It is a classic move on these. I can’t remember what it had when I seen it a few years ago. I just remeber laughing and saying, boy that was quick. Like I said, one looker.

Nick,
Please stop saying that I am defending something for my buddy. I am only asking you to provide unemotional proof for the statements you make. Nothing less, nothing more.
Peter

[PMan]

Telermuetze

Nick, If you can prove that the SS EREL hat interior was made or used after the end of telermuetze availability, I would find that to be rather conclusive. Can you do this?
Peter

[NTZ]

Peter I need to make a correction on a statement I made earlier. The materials are indicative of and early Erel but the sweatband is not from a pre war Erel. I just noticed it has the patent markings which would date it after Aug 1940 when Erel got the patent for the Stirnschutz. Prior to that they were DRGM marked. If all the materials are from the same donor cap it was probably a late 1940 or so and they generally did have the boiled wool base band not the doeskin type but that is not 100%, just in most cases. Anyway rule out Teller because it is not teller shape . It is in between, a common sign on rebuilds. I will look up the rgs for a date. I am cashing in for now. Still got a hang over, lol.

[PMan]

Telermuetze

Peter I need to make a correction on a statement I made earlier. The materials are indicative of and early Erel but the sweatband is not from a pre war Erel. I just noticed it has the patent markings which would date it after Aug 1940 when Erel got the patent for the Stirnschutz. Prior to that they were DRGM marked. If all the materials are from the same donor cap it was probably a late 1940 or so and they generally did have the boiled wool base band not the doeskin type but that is not 100%, just in most cases. Anyway rule out Teller anyway because it is not teller shape anyway. It is in between, a common sign on rebuilds. I will look up the rgs for a date. I am cashing in for now. Still got a hang over, lol.

Nick,
I just took another look at the hat and if that's not a telerform, I'll eat it. Anyway, it is interesting that you have dated the guts to 1940ish. Now can you date with certainty when telerforms were no longer available for sale. That IMO would be the clincher in this case.

Peter

[NTZ]

Peter, I have not found the dates but the only Tellers above em/nco for heer I have ever seen had the lighter green sweatbands and first pattern insignia. That would date them 33-35. I have never seen a W-SS visor in a teller form. Not even a VT visor.

[Z19]

Caps on Oakleaf

Changing the subject just a bit, but not really. Since you guys are asking questions about the caps on Oakleafs site why hasn't anyone brought these 2 caps into the mix? They're as rare as the SS generals visors you've been discussing, just not quite as expensive! I'm just curious as to what everyone thought about these, since they are never seen for sale and I may even be interested in one of them myself, but I won't say which one. I've never bought anything from Kris myself, but have spoken with him several times and he seems like an standup guy. Alex

http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/0810h13.html
http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/0810h2.html

[colt45s]

great info , thanks