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**Kreager** · 08-15-2008, 08:27 AM

I agree, now that we know more about the "window of opportunity" for a piped SS cap, the more one should question this cap.

A nice hands-on would surely be needed on a cap like this.

**phild** · 08-15-2008, 10:44 AM

I think that the interior looks very correct and convincing for a SS crusher type cap. The exterior looks good as well in terms of the more teller form like top that is often seen on the issue SS EM cloth visored field caps of the late 1930s and 1940..(but worn often by officers and worn much past 1940!).

This cap would I believe have to be custom made if it is period because of the officer's velvet band and the colored piping. I see no way to say it is not real based on these photos. I don't see that it would be out of possibility are even less than quite likely that an officer hac an EM issue cloth peak "crusher" used as a model pattern for a whim piped officer version made by a local cap maker outside of a SS Kaserne for instance.....I would bet that it happened often.

One thing we have to consider is why would a faker add the cords and Dutch buttons? This would create tons of doubt and confusion for most prospective buyers? If one looks a t enough photos they will see that W-SS officers OFTEN added cords to crusher caps....maybe more than 50% of the officer crusher were post made fitted with cords during the war and are ALMOST always incorrectly indentified in reference books as converted peak caps when in fact they are converted crushers!!

The Dutch buttons are easy.....the wearer was a former member (office maybe) of the Dutch Army.

I do not know for sure that this cap is period....I'm just trying to present another view.

**dubs_28** · 08-15-2008, 10:58 AM

This cap was purchased i think four years ago...not sure from where or who

I think phil makes some very good points...why would a faker make a cap that would only bring scrutiny and doubts to it?? the insignia and cap IMO as ive handled the cap are real

one has to consider after Germany invaded the Netherlands many dutch soldiers had no choice but to join up with the Nazis

**Lasse Kongo** · 08-15-2008, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by phild View Post

Was this cap offered and sold by "Relics of the Reich" or perhaps another dealer about 4 or 5 years ago?

Thanks

______________

I am quite sure it was shown on Bill Sheas site and possibly also sold by him. If not then it was another cap with yellow piping and Dutch sidebuttons but I doubt that.

Lasse

**phild** · 08-15-2008, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by Lasse Kongo View Post

______________

I am quite sure it was shown on Bill Sheas site and possibly also sold by him. If not then it was another cap with yellow piping and Dutch sidebuttons but I doubt that.

Lasse

I would not doubt that. I just seem to recall that this cap was offered and sold very quickly by a reconized (in a good way!) dealer. I may vae been mistaken about it ever being posted on this or any other forum...and in fact only saw it on the dealers site.....although I do think that I recall this cap being discussed somewhere....

IMO the only way to judge a private made cap is to examine it for the age or the materials and the age of the fabrication work. This is someting that no one likes to face up to because it can not be expalined or taught....and in the end is fairly subjective (that is a hate word to collectors!), Looking at the age and subtle fading and wear on thread and where different parts are sewn together...it is not an exact science.

I know this: If I was going to fake a cloth billed crusher it would not be like this one and if I was going to fake an officer's crusher it would not be like this one either. So if it is fake: What was the faker thinking?

**jacquesf** · 08-15-2008, 01:19 PM

One of my concerns is that if you look at the wear and what look to be dirt/patina to the right of the skull, it does not correspond to the piping that area. In my experience light yellow piping quickly faded and became dirty. The color of the piping also seems consistent across the cap, while the cap itself shows quite it bit handling wear, eg bent out of shape. Which does not translate to the visor. Jacques

**dubs_28** · 08-15-2008, 01:45 PM

Is there a possibility that this hat belonged to a member of the Dutch W.A. (Weer Afdelingen) or NSB? and who was later absorbed into the Dutch SS? There are a lot of possibilities. Did all SS visor piping have to be Waffenfarbe to designate a branch of service?

but to answer your concerns jacques...i understand what you seen in the photographs and we all know that they arent the best way to get a good look at a cap, but for me the wear on this visor looks consistent all over

**jacquesf** · 08-15-2008, 01:50 PM

The ss was only officially allowed to have branch colored piping for a short period (less than a year ) in 1940, on their visors. This practice did however continue until the end of the war, unofficially. Jacques

Originally posted by dubs_28 View Post

Is there a possibility that this hat belonged to a member of the Dutch W.A. (Weer Afdelingen) or NSB? and who was later absorbed into the Dutch SS? There are a lot of possibilities. Did all SS visor piping have to be Waffenfarbe to designate a branch of service?

but to answer your concerns jacques...i understand what you seen in the photographs and we all know that they arent the best way to get a good look at a cap, but for me the wear on this visor looks consistent all over

**dubs_28** · 08-15-2008, 01:55 PM

well 1940 would be right at the time of the German invasion of the Netherlands and I would believe that the SS general staff did not have as much control on regulations of foreign volunteers...interesting points

dubs_28

**johannes post** · 08-17-2008, 01:24 PM

they had a choiche but couldn't it be that in a nationalistisch way of thinking they remove the normal buttons for a dutch insigne.
i.m.o. i think the most collecters prefer only textbook.
a stupid way too think.

regards johan

Originally posted by dubs_28 View Post

This cap was purchased i think four years ago...not sure from where or who

I think phil makes some very good points...why would a faker make a cap that would only bring scrutiny and doubts to it?? the insignia and cap IMO as ive handled the cap are real

one has to consider after Germany invaded the Netherlands many dutch soldiers had no choice but to join up with the Nazis

**Doug Kenwright** · 08-20-2008, 10:13 PM

Why remove the photos?

**dubs_28** · 08-22-2008, 08:29 AM

the cap was not mine and was requested to be taken off

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