So Jack, you mention my post on the estand. Do you remember what I said? I got pulled so fast I'd be surprised. 
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Ben, not completely, but it did question whether the cap was what it purported to be - which would be a white piped, HG O/S cap - and whether the seller was misleading potential buyers by describing it as such. The comment was something along the line that without provenance it could not be established when the white piping was applied.
In my postings, what I am trying to do is establish that in some cases, it can be established without coming straight off the vet's head. In this case, I think it is pretty clear that the piping was applied when the cap was manufactured.
Only one unit within the Luftwaffe used the white piping - HG. Therefore, a factory applied white piping to an original Luft overseas cap can lead to only one conclusion - HG. I believe that the seller accurately described what he was selling.
Ben, I did not pull your post. In fact, I questioned who did. It could have led to a good discussion - which I hoped to solicit from my posting today.
Curtiss, I absolutely agree with you as well. I've never seen a photo of a piped cap being worn by HG. But, again, amongst many Luftwaffe collectors, the existence for a short time of such type caps is not in doubt. That would be the person that buys a cap such as this.Comment
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Well, maybe my post deserved to get pulled but in doing so, it completely missed the point of why I wrote it.
Minutes before I saw this cap on the estand, I was reading another thread (and there's been a few) of a member discussing a cap he'd bought from the forum that was not what he'd been expecting based on the description. In fact, it wasn't a good cap at all and that lead to how it hadn't been picked up by someone before it sold and the posting removed.
With that in mind, all I was trying to do with this cap was to flag the possibility that:
1. The piping might not be period applied.
2. Even if it were, how can anyone be certain it's a HG cap.
I also said on my post that "experienced collectors will see this cap for what it is". In hindsight, this was badly worded. I should have said that experienced collectors will see this cap as an original luft cap with white piping that, depending on their knowledge and personnal comfort zone, will judge for themselves whether the chances of it being a HG cap are good or not.
That's exactly what you've done and your happy to conclude that it's HG.
I've got no problem with that. Personnaly, I would not feel comfortable believing it was definitely owned and worn by a member of the HG without some other evidence linking it to the regiment but that's just me.
I'd like to ask this. What's the point in trying to police the estand to protect newer members when your posts are removed? I probably jumped in too quickly on this one I admitt, but I only had the best of intentions. It's a bit of a kick in the ass when those intentions aren't appreciated.
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Ben, absolutely, continue to police the e-stand for bad items. Our members are some of the best experts. However, when doing so, as was not the case with your posting related to this hat, please remember that the more information you can provide in making remarks, the better!
The two points which you were trying to make needed further explanation: First, why you believed that the piping might not be period applied; and, second, why even if period applied the cap would not belong to a member of the only unit within the Luftwaffe that wore white waffenfarbe.
Naturally, that discussion belongs where it is now in the cap section and not the E-Stand. And, it's still open to discussion!Comment
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Jack,
I think you did a great job of explaining why you feel the cap is good. You presented a forensically logical argument for the caps existance as an original HG piped overseas cap. I too liked it from the first, even though it differs from the two HG white piped overseas caps I own.
One is blue gray, one is black, and both completely different from yours. Both had the piping attached at manufacture and are of different materials than yours. I have shown them to some advanced collectors here on the forum, and they both passed on originality and piping installation.
Congratulations on your cap.
Richard PComment
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I don't know why this is so hard to understand!
If anyone can see from a few photos that any decently done sewing is definitely, 100%, bet your house and your wife on it, period done then they must have laser vison or a microscope that attaches to the monitor or something! It's just not possible IMO and that's from experience restoring hats and having collectors ask afterwards what exactly I've repaired because they just can't see it even with the cap in their hands.
As for your second point, white piping = HG does it? How on earth can that be positively proven? Answer = It can't. Are you 100% certain that only the HG ever wore white piping on their caps? Anyone in the whole Luftwaffe could have ended up with a white piped cap depending of what piping was available at the time, his own personnal preference and about a dozen other reasons that are possible.
I'm not trying to piss on your chips because at the end of the day, it's all about that leap of faith that we all have to have. It's just that with HG items, I'd want a bit more certainty.
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I would like to see MORE policing of items on the eStand, and perhaps a way to do it it to post a link to the appropriate forum where it is being discussed - I think the concern is that a discussion/slagging match in the sale thread will perpetually bump the item to the top over other items. It'll be a little extra work for moderators, but I think it is a positive step in the long run.
DonComment
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Best just to post a comment in the sales thread asking the seller to discuss the item being sold in the appropriate Forum, rather than discussing it in the Estand sales thread.
As mentioned it ruins the sales thread (if original) and continuously bumps the sales thread back to the top which is not fair to other sellers.
Glenn"A Man's Got to Know His Limitations"Comment
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Agreed, Ben. It is not a cap for your collection and I'd prefer malt vinegar over pee.Comment
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It's simple human nature, if someone has to go to the trouble of posting a new thread on the appropriate forum to discuss a questionable item on the estand, copying links, posting pictures again etc etc... 9 times out of 10, they won't bother and the item will fall through the net.
That's all I've got to say on this. I'm out...Comment
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Ben,
I appreciate all your comments and I do understand where you are coming from. I don't profess to have laser vision or 10X power eyeballs. I also agree that digital photos are the worst...but sometimes they are enough for some. I am taking Jack's word for it because he has it in hand, that, and from what I get out of the photos.
I've been fiddleing with this stuff for 44 years. I have seen many collectors come and go. Some have a knack...some don't, some never will. Some have luck in the hunt...some don't. I can't always explain why one guy has a room full of crap and the next guy has a room full of treasures. But...
You can develop an eye for certain things. I have collected American Volunteer Group or "Flying Tigers" items for a long time. I have been through many museum collections. I have been through many of the vets personal collections. I have been through a 100K collection that had 6 original items worth a fraction of what the guy paid. I can tell you in a few seconds if something is original AVG and in what country it was made in.
Suffice to say I'm not that way with TR items. I have a small niche and don't usually stray out of it. I am comfortable examining how some things are put together and being confident enough in my conclusions to be happy with something.
A friend got a hat from a vet that was very odd. It was an Allegmeine SS EM/NCO visor with an officers chincord and bullion Luft insignia. Of course the silly vet must have put it together out of parts so it needed to be put right. It was restored as an SS cap and sold as such. Then someone pops up years later with a photo of Luftwaffe HG men wearing them with Luft insignia with their black wraps. Hmmmmmm.
I prefer to trust my own instincts and maybe some day a photo will surface that shows exactly what I have and backs it up. Does that make it any more real. Probably to many...but I'm not one of them.
I can't tell you how many items I have had in 44 years that I kept on instinct, only to be proven right when the right info or photos get dug up. On another topic I have some issues with a panzer wrap. A number of people I listen to did not have a problem with it. It involves sewing, thread, sewing machine tracking and so on. Laser vision...no. Knack...maybe. keep up the good work Ben.
Richard PComment
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