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    #31
    Frank has very valid points. I've talked to many of the old collectors in the community and they don't participate in these forums anymore because they get caught in these situations. One told me once that he was at a militaria show and some new collector, knowing who he is, comes up and shows him his new acquisition. This well-known collector looks it over and tells the novice to take it back and get his money refunded; that it is a fake. The novice then begins saying things like, "You don't know what you're talking about. This is guaranteed 100% original by the dealer I bought it from, etc..." So after you get into these situations a few times, then you just want to avoid the hassle. If you just want to show everybody what you picked up and are not seeking an opinion on authenticity, then make it clear in your posting that you do not want anybody's OPINION about it. As already written, these caps are being made so well today, that without a hands-on inspection (for the most part), you cannot tell. But experienced collectors (probably all of us for that matter) learn little "tells" that "give up the game!" and show up in pictures. Only when the fakers learn these "tells" and fix them do we then start to get 'very well-made' fakes into our collections.

    Don't read anything between the lines... read the words and comprehend what I'm saying. There is NO emotion in my statement so take it for what it is worth. You are free to disagree with me and I defend your right to do so.

    Bob

    Comment

      #32
      Bob and Frank,

      I understand your points. Opinions are always welcome. Something of substance is even more welcome - I listed some examples of what constitutes value-added comments. If these finer points are known to the person commenting, then a PM or email would be enlightening.

      This isn't my first rodeo either, and I can cite all the novice mistake sea stories about the seasoned collectors exasperation with the newbie - we've all seen it. But since you don't know me and I don't know you, it is impossible to know someones base of knowledge. Do they own one of the items being discussed? Are they a subject matter expert? Have they been dealing in them for 50 years? Or 5 months?

      My point is simply this: if one has the knowledge of what is wrong with a piece, present it (in private or public). No faker is going to be "tipped off" because the insignia on this hat were bad, or the liner material were incorrect - and for those features where discretion is in order, send a PM. I know most of us would appreciate that.

      If a collector just has a gut feel the piece is not good with no compelling evidence, it's fine to say so (I've seen plenty of forum members do this). In this case, I was asking for opinions of originality, not opinions as to whether someone else would want to buy it.

      Hopefully this makes sense. It's not intended to offend people. s/f Robert

      Comment

        #33
        Hello Robert,

        I agree with your perspective and thank you for the response.

        Serious collectors should be like a good detective. Have solid evidence to support the facts.

        It can be very dangerous to prove an item is authentic by catering our study to meet a desired outcome. Our goal should be to seek the truth and not what we want the truth to be.

        I find it all too common that some collectors seem to be protecting their pride by defending an item when the facts prove otherwise.

        In the case of this thread, I think you have asked the appropriate questions when searching for the truth.

        Sincerely yours,

        Frank

        Comment

          #34
          I think it's fair to say that most collectors regardless of experience won't commit to a good or bad verdict on an M43 cap posted on the forum unless it's an obvious fake. These things are so tough to authenticate from photos, especially pz because black wool does not photograph well. You can't see the wear of the nap. In these circumstances, when pushed for an opinion, I fall back on my gut feeling. Some people don't like reading about people's gut feelings because when your learning and trying to find solid facts, it offers no clues or answers. But the truth of the matter is most experienced collectors I know have this 6th sense, gut feeling or whatever you want to call it and base their opinions on this "sense" when looking at photos. Sometimes your "gut" is correct and sometimes not.
          Lately, I've been thinking quite a bit on where we are now on the forum.
          To hear that people won't consider items authentic unless certain collectors come on here and give their approval is both frightening and a bit sad. Where is the enjoyment to collect by concensis? It's bit like going to the pub and saying, I have no opinion of what I want to drink so therefore I'll drink the beer that everyone else is drinking whether I like it or not, it must be good.
          In regards to this pz cap, I sent a pm saying I would buy it but I wasn't the first by a long shot so I missed out. Bryon had doubts but he always does, no dissrespect to him and he (hopefully) knows that! but personnaly, I wouldn't have given a damn if every post said it was a bad cap. My gut was telling me that this cap had a very good chance of being authentic. It's not about arrogance, it's about having faith in your own judgement. If you haven't got that, better off collecting something else like barbie dolls but I bet even in that world, there are fakes and experts and novices and all the rest of it.

          Comment

            #35
            Originally posted by BenVK View Post
            In regards to this pz cap, I sent a pm saying I would buy it but I wasn't the first by a long shot so I missed out.
            I was the first but Robert has not received my back answer and is gone.
            In my opinion this cap is original, but I am agree with Bob that without a hands-on inspection you cannot tell.
            Hope the new owner could understand if original or not.
            Have a nice collecting
            Luca
            Siam fatti cosi!

            Comment

              #36
              A hands on is of course preferred but you have to make a judgement based on photos a lot of times don't you? 80% of my collection came from ebay with no return prospect and no guarantee. Foolish maybe, but I swear most of my top items were found this way and I don't plan on changing my collecting habits anytime soon. It's just a personnal choice, I enjoy the buzz of taking a risk that buying from a dealer just doesn't give me.

              Comment

                #37
                I am agree with you Ben, more suspense
                A lot of good purchases everywhere on ebay.
                Luca
                Siam fatti cosi!

                Comment

                  #38
                  army panzer m43

                  I haven't replied to this thread yet because I was very interested in this cap and was persuing it. However, I have had the cap since Monday and wanted to make note of it here, so everyone knows what happened to it. I like it very much. I do understand the other commented doubts on it, it is not 100% textbook. However, I believe it's original. I can only think that maybe things at Münich Mützen lago 17 where not all the uniform? Just my opinion.

                  -Gerard
                  Last edited by Gerard/Relic Hunter; 05-23-2008, 03:52 PM.

                  Comment

                    #39
                    I am glad this thread resurfaced. The cap has some very nice qualities.

                    Frank

                    Comment

                      #40
                      OK, I will keep my comment brief as this one seems to have explained itself.

                      The conclusion of all of this is, "original panzer M43 of pre-May 45 manufacture by a LAGO in Munich which was intially wrongly identified on this forum as not being original by some members"

                      I can live with this, are we now all in agreement ?

                      Chris

                      Comment

                        #41
                        I would like to bring this cap to the top. It is indeed a nice cap.

                        Thanks,

                        Frank

                        Comment

                          #42
                          For sale again, too.

                          Comment

                            #43
                            I was just looking at this thread again. A 101% original Panzer M43.

                            I like it

                            Chris

                            Comment

                              #44
                              I like this cap too. But I must say I am very leery when making an M43 purchase. I wouldn't spend big bucks on one just by looking at pics unless members all said, "WOW, that is a one looker, for sure real cap". This is something you seldom hear. I just picked up 3 M43s for $10 and that's about the extent of my gambling on them. They really look good to me and I posted pics but cant get anybody to comment. I do understand because they just seem to easy to fake. I do think M43s often need a hands on inspection. The weight, the feel...things you cant capture in pics. I tend to stick to visors which seem to be a bit more difficult for the forgers to get right.

                              Nice Panzer cap, good luck with it!

                              Comment

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