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    #76
    Originally posted by NTZ View Post
    I am pretty sure they had no panzer units in 1940.

    Here is a pre war "SS Deutschland" 8 wheeler + a 2nd one in the backround, the picture should be from ca. 1938.

    Nick, instead of suggesting other members to do some more reading why don't you follow your own suggestions? I think it would really make some things easier.

    Cheers

    Fritz
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      #77
      Originally posted by Fritz View Post
      Here is a pre war "SS Deutschland" 8 wheeler + a 2nd one in the backround, the picture should be from ca. 1938.

      Nick, instead of suggesting other members to do some more reading why don't you follow your own suggestions? I think it would really make some things easier.

      Cheers

      Fritz
      Big deal. What was the strength? That is the point. It certainly was not in any great strength. The numbers are extremely limited of troops that could have worn the waffenfarbe. Don’t revise history to fit your needs.

      Comment

        #78
        The entire strength of the SS in May of 1940 was 124,199. Out of that how many were NOT infantry? How many wore waffenfarbe? Even a better question, how many were officers'?

        http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2173
        Last edited by NTZ; 03-26-2008, 08:42 AM.

        Comment

          #79
          Originally posted by glassmine
          Those armoured cars do not exactly constitute a tank force, more like motorised infantry, later panzer grenadiers.

          Nick is refering to full on in your face combat strenth tin coffins.

          JT
          Exactly

          Comment

            #80
            These are good points, I was half way through a reply when I lost my pc link and it half posted. I will continue

            JT, another member and I were talking about SS panzer strengths at a show in Malvern recently and he quoted similar figures to what NTZ has regarding Panzer troops in the W SS at the early part of the war, those eight wheel things were more like command cars and would not give much armour protection if things got hot.

            Comment

              #81
              Originally posted by NTZ View Post
              Exactly
              Glassmine, he cleary said that he would rule out panzer recon units in 1940 and recon/cavalry is what the cap's color is for , what you see on the picture are panzeraufklärer. He said that in his opinion the ss had no panzer recon in 1940, my picture is pre war...so??


              The Leibstandarte had a panzerspäh-unit in 1940 which was attached to its Artillerie-Regiment. The SS-Verfügungsdivision had a complete Aufklärungsabteilung incl. panzer recon by 1940. Totenkopf had its "SS-Totenkopf-Aufklärungsabteilung" in 1939 also incl. panzer recon.

              Cheers

              Fritz

              Comment

                #82
                Originally posted by NTZ View Post
                Don’t revise history to fit your needs.

                Comment

                  #83
                  Originally posted by Fritz View Post
                  Glassmine, he cleary said that he would rule out panzer recon units in 1940 and recon/cavalry is what the cap's color is for , what you see on the picture are panzeraufklärer. He said that in his opinion the ss had no panzer recon in 1940, my picture is pre war...so??


                  The Leibstandarte had a panzerspäh-unit in 1940 which was attached to its Artillerie-Regiment. The SS-Verfügungsdivision had a complete Aufklärungsabteilung incl. panzer recon by 1940. Totenkopf had its "SS-Totenkopf-Aufklärungsabteilung" in 1939 also incl. panzer recon.

                  Cheers

                  Fritz
                  Total strength in 1940? How many were officers? How many bought a color pipe? It pretty much limits you now doesn’t it?

                  Comment

                    #84
                    For those that are uncertain what "Panzeraufklärer" are :

                    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzeraufkl%C3%A4rer

                    Sorry, no english version of that site. And yes Nick, I hasty wrote that all myself in order to "make that fit my needs".

                    Cheers

                    Fritz

                    Comment

                      #85
                      Originally posted by NTZ View Post
                      Total strength in 1940? How many were officers? How many bought a color pipe? It pretty much limits you now doesn’t it?
                      Well Nick, you just told me these units didn't exist...? Now you ask me how many men were in these units. Naturally not one! Remember, they didn't exist!!

                      Cheers

                      Fritz

                      Comment

                        #86
                        Gentlemen, this is good discussion but let us please stick to the topic and resist personal comments. Thank you!

                        Comment

                          #87
                          Originally posted by Fritz View Post
                          Well Nick, you just told me these units didn't exist...? Now you ask me how many men were in these units. Naturally not one! Remember, they didn't exist!!

                          Cheers

                          Fritz
                          The point I made when I said you could rule out panzer recon was not that they did not exist completely. Just that their numbers were so small they were basically nonexistent, especially officers. You can only be talking about a handful of men.

                          Comment

                            #88
                            Originally posted by NTZ View Post
                            The one thing we haven’t discussed with this cap and the reason for my focus on the strength of the SS in 1940 is this. The cap in question is void all maker markings. This is indicative of Kleiderkasse production. If indeed this cap is a Kleiderkasse example it would certainly limit production to the 1940 reg period. I, just like most of you believe these were made post 1940 but certainly by private purchase only. The Kleiderkasse and contract suppliers were certainly not sanctioning the use of non-regulation visors.
                            The one thing that I feel that we haven't discussed is the answer to the questions in may last post.

                            If we agree that that SS colored piping was only carried by the SS Kleiderkasse during 1940 (I'm not saying that I do but for the sake of discussion I'll go along with it for now) then what is so hard to believe that this is a SS Kleiderkasse product from that period (1940)?

                            If the answer is that there too few SS cav officers then I would ask :How many original SS cav officer crusher caps have you ever seen? Only this One? So one surviving cav crusher does not seem unreasonable to me.

                            Comment

                              #89
                              Hi

                              It seems like IF the cap was made pre -40 it was so few cavalery-recon officers that these do not count as candidates for a color piped visor...

                              That is not really any science, is it?

                              Do anyone have picture of another fluffy piped visor?

                              Comment

                                #90
                                Originally posted by phild View Post
                                what is so hard to believe that this is a SS Kleiderkasse product from that period (1940)?
                                I never said this was not a 1940 Kleiderkasse.

                                What I am saying is if it is there were only a handfull of men that could have even ordered one.

                                Comment

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