black pz mle 43 cap

[derka]

hello,

if some of you want to get it :

http://www.militaria-ww2.com/Vente/a...p?numero=60220

i'm not interested by this one.

derka

[Glenn McInnes]

My advice would be to pass.






Glenn

[derka]

maybe should i have say it clearly as you did, Mr McInnes.
derka

[90th Light]

My advise would be to pass.






Glenn

I have now looked at these 3 images two or three times and I can not say one way or the other without at the very least more images but even better a 'hands-on' if this cap is good or bad.

There are absolutely original examples of black WH Panzer M43 caps in that style and of that design but there are of course also reproductions.

Glenn did the seller provide you with extra photos of the important areas to check ???

Any chance more images can be posted because IMHO this one could be ok but needs more investigation,

Chris

[John Huff]

Those three images would be enough for me...

[90th Light]

Those three images would be enough for me...

Could be John that I need glasses but how does the second or middle image help you come to the conclusion of a reproduction ?

Does it not show an original Panzer trap machine stitched to the cap in the correct fashion ? Can you not get composite buttons like those on a WH Panzer M43 ?

I agree that such buttons are not as common on a WH Panzer M43 as metal buttons but you can find pre-May 45 examples with those composites.

Perhaps its the button holes or the double stitching at the top of the flap ?

I just can not see how someone can come to a beyond doubt conclusion based on those 3 images. It has never failed to amaze me sometimes what you discover when you get to handle a cap.

I am not trying to defend the cap, I have no interest in it but personally I would give myself more room in making a judgement based on only 3 computer images.

Lets see what others think, Chris

[John Huff]

Perhaps I should rephrase myself. From those three pictures, I would also pass. I could be wrong and have been wrong before. Concerning the middle picture, is it an original trap? Look at the wreath to the right of the swastika. Maybe its the pic but it looks malformed to me.

[B. N. Singer]

Those three images would be enough for me...

Them three are enough for me too Johnny!
Looking at it again, I think the first pic is enough!!

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

Them three are enough for me too Johnny!
Looking at it again, I think the first pic is enough!!

B. N. Singer

Hello Mr Singer, I am being a naughty boy again and questioning the "seasoned collectors" but looking at that first image, I can come up with an example both ways;

A/ some sort of "Janke" type reproduction of a black Panzer M43 that has a tan/brown liner like that

verses

B/a cap a very good friend of mine has which a relative of his who was a New Zealand Anti-tank gunner took after an ambush of the 26 Panzer Recon in early1945 ( I know it is 26 Pz.AA because he also got some Soldbuchs, shoulder boards, badges and wrote the place/date details inside the cap )

If I take a picture then both these caps A&B they look like that in an image that size.

What I need is more close-ups. I mean what is the liner made of ? It does not look like "drill" or "HBT" but is it linen, cotton, mesh, artificial silk or satin ?

I would soon recognise a Janke lining.

For me, there is not enough to draw a conclusion or make a sweeping statement. I do agree however that I would want to investigate more before I paid Euro 1500 for it. There are reproductions which look like that based on originals which look like that.

We are evolving to a stage now with these just like the badge guys where we have to analysis the finer footprints of each manufacturer.

Then again may-be it is lack of glasses as I get older and a poor computer monitor.

Regards, Chris

[djpool]

Hi Chris,
Is it possible to see any pictures of your friends vet acquired cap? WR jim

Hello Mr Singer, I am being a naughty boy again and questioning the "seasoned collectors" but looking at that first image, I can come up with an example both ways;

A/ some sort of "Janke" type reproduction of a black Panzer M43 that has a tan/brown liner like that

verses

B/a cap a very good friend of mine has which a relative of his who was a New Zealand Anti-tank gunner took after an ambush of the 26 Panzer Recon in early1945 ( I know it is 26 Pz.AA because he also got some Soldbuchs, shoulder boards, badges and wrote the place/date details inside the cap )

If I take a picture then both these caps A&B they look like that in an image that size.

What I need is more close-ups. I mean what is the liner made of ? It does not look like "drill" or "HBT" but is it linen, cotton, mesh, artificial silk or satin ?

I would soon recognise a Janke lining.

For me, there is not enough to draw a conclusion or make a sweeping statement. I do agree however that I would want to investigate more before I paid Euro 1500 for it. There are reproductions which look like that based on originals which look like that.

We are evolving to a stage now with these just like the badge guys where we have to analysis the finer footprints of each manufacturer.

Then again may-be it is lack of glasses as I get older and a poor computer monitor.

Regards, Chris

[90th Light]

Hi Chris,
Is it possible to see any pictures of your friends vet acquired cap? WR jim

Hello Jim, nice to touch base. I will ask him and if he says yes then arrange to have some photos taken and posted. Time at the moment will be my biggest challenge.

Out of interest and respect of your judgement, what is your opinion of the cap which started this thread ?

Regards, Chris

[90th Light]

Perhaps I should rephrase myself. From those three pictures, I would also pass. I could be wrong and have been wrong before. Concerning the middle picture, is it an original trap? Look at the wreath to the right of the swastika. Maybe its the pic but it looks malformed to me.

Hello John, have I miss something and we have now declared this type of Panzer trap is in fact a fake ???

If so could you please link me to the thread or threads where this was discussed because I seem to have missed it.

In my experience (but I may be about to learn more) that Panzer trap is ok and a good example of a pre-May 45 manufacture. Now again the image provided could be clearer and this is my whole point of what I am trying to say but from what I can see, I see what I like.

You will find the same trap on pages 260 (plate 1.27) and 261 (plate 1.29) of "Field Uniforms of the Germany Army Panzer Forces in World War 2" by Micheal.H.Pruett & Robert.J.Edwards published by Fedorowicz, 1993.

If you look at the plates in this book you will see the same lose thread on the right of the wreath of the swastika, to which you refer. This seems to be a "foot-print" of this manufacturer and I am yet to see an example without it. I could list some other footprints but may-be this is enough for now.

There are other publications which show this trap but I think Preutt & Edwards is the best to quote here because both Byran Singer and Mike Davis contributed to it, not to mention others of course so I consider this a respected reference on this forum. Certainly is for me.

No, I am going to stick my neck out now and say I believe in my opinion that the trap is 100% correct unless someone can prove me wrong. Image two at the start of this thread shows a strange black spot or gap on the top of the right wing but apart from that it is "textbook"

Look forward to your thoughts or others if you think I am right or wrong on this (the trap)

Regards, Chris

[John Huff]

If the wreath "malformation" is a known manufacturer's variant, I stand corrected. I do not have the reference you sited. I am still concerned about the "missing" section of the wing. Usually damaged bevo isn't picked so clean. I offer this in a good spirit of debate. In fact, these hats are so seldom encountered, I distrust 99% of them.

[90th Light]

If the wreath "malformation" is a known manufacturer's variant, I stand corrected. I do not have the reference you sited. I am still concerned about the "missing" section of the wing. Usually damaged bevo isn't picked so clean.

Hello John, yes I agree the missing section of the top of the wing is a puzzle, may be the grey threads have got caught up in the sewing process and pulled. Can not say more without a hands-on

I just did a search of the forum to see if we have discussed this type of trap at any other time. Have not got very far but I see that on 10-14-2007 forum member Luca Ongaro started a thread called "Panzer enlisted M43 Fieldcap" (the last member to comment was ibencsik on 10-17-2007)

This cap is almost the same as the cap which started this thread and may be from the same manufacturer except it has had more use & soiling. In Luca's thread no one has expressed too many doubts but they do talk about the need for a hands on to be sure. What his thread does show however is a really clear image of this type of trap.

Sorry I do not seem to be able to create a highlighted link from this thread but please have a look and tell me what you think. May be Luca will read this and tell us if he is still happy with his Panzer M43. I see no reason why he would not be but lets see what others say

Best regards, Chris

[Luca Ongaro]

Hello Chris, friends and collectors, I am following with interest this thread and I decide to give my opinion about this cap.
As you surely know authentic M43 PZ caps are so difficult to find and a hands on inspection is always needed to be sure.
What I can tell you by these poor pictures is that in my opinion the cap has good chances to be a good one.
I like as is made and yes this cap could be from the same manufacturer of mine and no much other originals I have seen on hands.
By these pics the trap seems original to the cap and as mentioned by you this is a "textbook" example of a pre-May 45 manufacture.
Just my two cents, however nice cap IMHO.
Luca