Some Visor cap questions, NTZ, Dave etc. please help!

[Koguryo9]

First I want to say I am so impressed by your (it seems that everyone here is an expert) immense knowledge on WWII German visor caps and other cloth headgears. This forum is great thanks to you.

As a newbie who is fascinated by this hobby, I have some questions and I hope you can all chime in. Thank you.

(1) "Issue/Government stock" vs. Private purchase. According to Gary Wilkins' book (a great book I think), any visor that is not made of average grade tricot is a private purchase. So essentially caps made of finer grade tricot, doeskin, Eskimo and others are private purchase caps. Is that correct? Also the book mentioned that there are private purchase visor caps that do not bear the maker's mark on the sweatshield. Is that true? My question is, why would the maker not print the maker's mark on the cap at all if it was a private purchase? What was the rationale behind this?

(2) Cap insignia piercing through cap lining: I have heard some people saying that authentic visors would rarely have the prongs of cap insignia piercing through the lining. Is that correct? So should I stay away caps that break this rule? Did German cap makers put the insignia on first before they completed the interior, lining etc.? If not, how did they attach the cap insignia without piercing through the lining?

(3) Build and material quality of the cap: Is it true that government stock/issue caps are inferior to private purchase caps in terms of quality and craftsmanship? Is it true that late war (after 1943) visor caps used materials of lower quality? I remember seeing an officer's visor cap made of very coarse type/grade of wool, not the fine doeskin you usually see on officer visors. Does it mean it might be a fake, or a OR-converted cap?


Thank you for your input and thoughts in advance.

[HouweTrouwe]

First I want to say I am so impressed by your (it seems that everyone here is an expert) immense knowledge on WWII German visor caps and other cloth headgears. This forum is great thanks to you.

As a newbie who is fascinated by this hobby, I have some questions and I hope you can all chime in. Thank you.

(1) "Issue/Government stock" vs. Private purchase. According to Gary Wilkins' book (a great book I think), any visor that is not made of average grade tricot is a private purchase. So essentially caps made of finer grade tricot, doeskin, Eskimo and others are private purchase caps. Is that correct? Also the book mentioned that there are private purchase visor caps that do not bear the maker's mark on the sweatshield. Is that true? My question is, why would the maker not print the maker's mark on the cap at all if it was a private purchase? What was the rationale behind this?

(2) Cap insignia piercing through cap lining: I have heard some people saying that authentic visors would rarely have the prongs of cap insignia piercing through the lining. Is that correct? So should I stay away caps that break this rule? Did German cap makers put the insignia on first before they completed the interior, lining etc.? If not, how did they attach the cap insignia without piercing through the lining?

(3) Build and material quality of the cap: Is it true that government stock/issue caps are inferior to private purchase caps in terms of quality and craftsmanship? Is it true that late war (after 1943) visor caps used materials of lower quality? I remember seeing an officer's visor cap made of very coarse type/grade of wool, not the fine doeskin you usually see on officer visors. Does it mean it might be a fake, or a OR-converted cap?


Thank you for your input and thoughts in advance.

Indeed. Germany ran out of resources and their fabrics were bombed as hell.. What you think?

You can see it example on the clothes .... on the mausers ... etcetera, early war is always best quality.

[Koguryo9]

NTZ you said

"Make sure the lining belongs. If you have a contract lining in a private purchase cap you know you have big problems. Also check the lining for any markings that may identify the lining to a civil, army, political, SS, Kreigs or Luft cap. Obviously the lining should match the type a cap it is found in. "


Which brings up another question of mine: What do you mean by "the lining should match the type a cap it is found in"? Are there standard patterns of cap linings for each branch of service? I heard people talking about "textbook" construction. What exactly is "textbook"? I understand it makes sense if it was say government stock/issue/contracted caps, but since there were so many private purchased caps made by different cap makers, is there such thing as "textbook"? Thanks.

[NTZ]

NTZ you said

"Make sure the lining belongs. If you have a contract lining in a private purchase cap you know you have big problems. Also check the lining for any markings that may identify the lining to a civil, army, political, SS, Kreigs or Luft cap. Obviously the lining should match the type a cap it is found in. "


Which brings up another question of mine: What do you mean by "the lining should match the type a cap it is found in"? Are there standard patterns of cap linings for each branch of service? I heard people talking about "textbook" construction. What exactly is "textbook"? I understand it makes sense if it was say government stock/issue/contracted caps, but since there were so many private purchased caps made by different cap makers, is there such thing as "textbook"? Thanks.

To answer your question on contract linings “ALL” contract linings on Luft, Heer & SS are rust brown. Also 99% of them are void of all markings except a size stamp (if it has one). What I mean in make sure the lining fits is many fakes or put together SS visors were parted together with civil linings. Civil caps were cheap back in the day and made great parts caps. A lot of civil linings had waterproof oilcloth linings like a SA kepi. You should never find this type lining on an W-SS visor(this coment excludes pre war SS visors). Also a lot of civil lining look like Heer or SS lining except they have maker marks on them. Their military counterparts will not. Hope this helps.

As for textbook, it is just a term that is very hard to explain. I would go back and read a lot of the threads we use the term and you can get a good vibe for what we mean.
Your question on the prongs has sparked a lot of debate and everyone has their own feelings. I know I have never seen an untouched and unissued visor with them through the lining (private purchase only).

Materials and construction wise, yes contract caps are inferior to private purchase and yes even private purchase quality diminished toward wars end.

[Koguryo9]

To answer your question on contract linings “ALL” contract linings on Luft, Heer & SS are rust brown. Also 99% of them are void of all markings except a size stamp (if it has one). What I mean in make sure the lining fits is many fakes or put together SS visors were parted together with civil linings. Civil caps were cheap back in the day and made great parts caps. A lot of civil linings had waterproof oilcloth linings like a SA kepi. You should never find this type lining on an W-SS visor(this coment excludes pre war SS visors). Also a lot of civil lining look like Heer or SS lining except they have maker marks on them. Their military counterparts will not. Hope this helps.

Thanks a lot for your answers, NTZ. One of my questions is "there are private purchase visor caps that do not bear the maker's mark on the sweatshield. Is that true? My question is, why would the maker not print the maker's mark on the cap at all if it was a private purchase? What was the rationale behind this?". Do you have an answer to this?

I know I have never seen an untouched and unissued visor with them through the lining (private purchase only).

Yet the cap on the cover and content of Wilkins' book seems to be an unissued Waffen SS officer visor cap (from Bill Shea) that has the prongs piercing through the lining (as shown on one of the pictures of its interiors in the book)

[NTZ]

Tthere are private purchase visor caps that do not bear the maker's mark on the sweatshield. Is that true? My question is, why would the maker not print the maker's mark on the cap at all if it was a private purchase? What was the rationale behind this?".

On Heer, Luft & Kreigs almost all private purchase visor will be maker marked, or at least they were when they were made. It is possible for a mark to wear off over time. Now the non-marked private purchase visor are SS kleiderkasse visors. I don’t think anyone has figured out why they did this but private purchase SS visor bought through the SS kleiderkasse will NOT have makers marks.

[Koguryo9]

So the difference between say a government contracted/issued SS visor and a private purchase SS visor though Kleiderkasse is really that the contracted visor is made of average grade tricot and has rust brown lining whereas the private purchase visor is made of finer tricot, doeskin and other types of wool and could have linings in various colors?

Nick, is your book available now? Can't wait to buy it.

[N.C. Wyeth]

So the difference between say a government contracted/issued SS visor and a private purchase SS visor though Kleiderkasse is really that the contracted visor is made of average grade tricot and has rust brown lining whereas the private purchase visor is made of finer tricot, doeskin and other types of wool and could have linings in various colors?

Nick, is your book available now? Can't wait to buy it.

Koguryo9 (WAF's seemingly "Newbie" Apprenti . . .),

Here is something you may find curious . . .

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hlight=Allg+ss

I know another member here that just picked this particular cap up, and it may bear some interest and knowledge regarding the information you seem to be seeking . . .

Brad

[Koguryo9]

Thanks Brad!