m34 schiffen opinion

[madandi]

I don´t like the sidecap. The stiching looks the close.
Is the grommet made from brass?

[Mike Bollow]

So many questions! Answer them I will! (Yoda voice)

1) I have several M34 caps with brass grommets, but they are all very early. I also have one with a grommet that is very similar to this, but it is not 100% brass. It is half brass, half steel. Photo below:

[Mike Bollow]

Sometimes factories used the same color thread as the soutache, sometimes they used plain white. Here is a factory applied red soutache with thread to match. PROPER soutaches always hug the outside of the cockade or slightly overlap it. The top of the "V" is always more sharp than round.

[Mike Bollow]

Here is the reverse side. This particular type of soutache has some yellow thread in it's core, and you can see it where it is coming unraveled.

[Mike Bollow]

As for hand-applied soutache, it was done a lot more frequently than most people imagine. That being said, most of the ones you'll encounter are done post-war by a dealer or collector to try and make his cap worth more. If you have a 65 year old cap with a shiny new piece of soutache hand sewn to it... run away.

The reason soutaches were added, or changed is the very same reason guys with M43 tunics had the company tailor add a bottle green collar -- to LOOK YOUR BEST! As the quality and appearance of German uniforms deteriorated over the years, lots of troops (NCO's in particular) did what they could to make their issue kit look as "sharp" as possible.

I have 4 examples that I believe are period. Two are very early and have unit issue stamps inside.

I have a Feldgendarme soutache that is hand applied that was originally issued to an Infantry unit. This was a show walk-in and is clearly wartime done. I have a transport soutache that came from Bill Shea and the owner sewed his name inside the lip of the cap AS HE ADDED the soutache. The third one is an Infantry soutache cap that was issued originally to an artillery unit, and the soutache isn't "factory" material at all... it is from a fabric shop or something. It is VERY salty and 100% wartime. The fourth is a panzergrenadier soutache and came from a WAF member. It appears completely wartime to me.

Hope this helps!

Mike

[Mike Bollow]

I almost have all the waffenfarbe branches... hopefully the SOS will help me this year!

[Richard P]

Jacques,

There have been several informative answers for you. There were hundreds of manufacturers, many well know...quite a few obscure. Seperating the period from the newly manufactured or modified...thats the trick.There isn't any one person that knows everything about these caps. We all know a little and maybe by pooling our knowledge we will know more eventually. Here are a number of examples of factory or tailor applied soutache.... as stated by reenactorfest ( I always thought it was reenactorforest until I had to type it). There were many hand done. Good luck to us all on sorting them out. I would stick to factory applied for now unless from a veteran source. These are to illustrate the wide variety of insignia, soutache, and styles you will encounter from the lowly up to the generals. Most seem to have the flap sewn to the cap body after soutache application...often done with the same technique as medal loops.

Richard P

[Richard P]

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[Richard P]

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[Richard P]

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[Richard P]

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[Richard P]

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[Rick C]

If I might boil down what I’m reading regarding this peer review (from a denny-the-dunce perspective) it’s accepted that Gary takes a crappy photo (shame on you Gary) but there’s nothing wrong with the cap or the insignia.

While there was a question on the style of grommet, Reenactorfest correctly puts that question to rest.

The real question seems to be put forth by Reenactorfest when he relates: “I think the soutache was replaced. That is not a typical factory application.” but, as hcliffe queries: ”so if the soutache was not factory applied, does that mean it was done post war?” The answer to this question is ‘No’.

Reenactorfest relates (and I agree): “ The reason soutaches were added, or changed is the very same reason guys with M43 tunics had the company tailor add a bottle green collar -- to LOOK YOUR BEST! As the quality and appearance of German uniforms deteriorated over the years, lots of troops (NCO's in particular) did what they could to make their issue kit look as "sharp" as possible.“

I’m thinking that unless there’s clear evidence of post war tampering (such as non-period thread used to affix the piping), to infer that the soutache’s ‘placement’ pursuant to the cockard means anything other than it was not factory applied (ie that it is humped up) is pure speculation.

Since we know these were field done just as traditions badges were added to caps and visors when troops transferred to units entitled to wear traditions badges, reading negativity into the exact ‘placement’ of a soutache (or traditions badge) in relation to other existent insignia on a cap remains nothing more than speculation.

Peer review accepts the cap as period and the insignia as period. It appears to be then a question for the buyer as to whether he wishes to add a cookie cutter, regulation compliant, factory made piece to his/her collection or whether the exact ‘placement’ of the soutache relative to the cockard is a personal issue. I see nothing wrong with the cap...
Rick C.

[Mike Bollow]

<<reading negativity into the exact ‘placement’ of a soutache (or traditions badge) in relation to other existent insignia on a cap remains nothing more than speculation.>>

I certainly can't speak for every field applied soutache, but from what I have seen on KNOWN originals, the soldiers took the time to place the soutache in the correct spot.

I think the determiner with the cap in question is whether the soutache is machine sewn or hand sewn. If it's machine... I'd say it was added to increase value. If it's hand sewn, then it's up to the buyer to decide!

Thanks for those awesome panzer caps Richard!!

Mike

[jacquesf]

I am really keen on the cap. The application of the soutache does not bother me. The fact that Gary does not return my email regarding buying the cap, will mean it is even less than an issue. I appretiate the indepth and informative discussion on this thread, thanks. Jacques