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**Panzergrenadiere71** · 08-28-2007, 05:46 AM

Originally posted by Schwarz View Post

As for the color , have seen not one but several Waffen-SS Officers overseas caps in gray but in live it is not so gray but has a greenish tone to it, just the right color and if you ask me, insignia is just right, take ten bevo insignias and you will always see a detail a bit diferent than the other...would love to hear NTZ and Benvk

I know there are several types of original TK&eagles,this is not the case IMO but to be 100% sure I would like to have better pics.It seems to me that this example is not gray-green but gray......

Best
Emilio

**Schwarz** · 08-28-2007, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by Panzergrenadiere71 View Post

I know there are several types of original TK&eagles,this is not the case IMO but to be 100% sure I would like to have better pics.It seems to me that this example is not gray-green but gray......

Best
Emilio

I am looking at it at this very moment and trust me, it is gray-greenish but i just cant seem to catch that tone on the camera, maybe i should take a pic outside, that should show the real color

**Schwarz** · 08-28-2007, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by lelez View Post

might be the pictures but i have some doubts as well....and i dont like the insignia

Please be more specific about the insignia, as far as the TK, Eeagle seems just right but of course there such items that can give one a headake and this seems to be one of those !
If it turnes out to be a fake,well it's the damn best fake i have ever seen !!!

**BenVK** · 08-28-2007, 11:35 AM

I'd like to see a shot of the complete interior, does it have a partial leather s/band for instance? The exterior looks correct from the photos.
As for the insignia, something does worry me but I can't put my finger on it yet. Prehaps it's because they are so pristine they look brand new, I don't know...

**Mike Dalton** · 08-28-2007, 02:29 PM

This cap has more questions than answers and to me, that is not a 'good' thing when it comes to SS headgear. I myself have never encountered a 'gaberdine' material o'seas cap in field-grey. I have seen them in blue for Luft. I also have issues with the lining(enlisted type) and the insignia. The eagle is a flatwire and the skull appears to be white and the white piping is a bit too pristine bright white for my tastes. I will go so far as to say that the skull is not good.

**phild** · 08-28-2007, 03:53 PM

I don't know one way or the other so pehaps I should not even comment...take it with a grain of salt. Here are may concerns:

1. In the photos the cap fabric (both color and nature of the tricot weave) looks very much like DDR officer uniform cloth to me. 2. The piping is much too "fuzzy" than what I would like to see. 3. While they may in fact orginal, I have real doubts on both the eagle and skull. 4. The entire cap is just a little too "TEXTBOOK" for me. Perfect stiching in cap body and insignia, perfect shape of cut, perfect condition (no apparent age even!) In other words this cap looks very contrived to look a certain way rather than just be a certain item for utility use made to conform to a regulation pattern.

My long pitched question to the collecting community is this: If in item is perfect made (i.e. 100% textbook) does that make it original?

Well my answer is NO, not at all. Any psuedo sharp collector can find some fault with anything that was made during WWII, but they will have a very hard time finding anything wrong with a perfect textbook fake. It's come full circle.

**Stroodle** · 08-28-2007, 04:10 PM

officer side cap photo

I know little about soft caps...please exscuse me. The photo posted looked familiar to me so I started looking thru some books. I have attached a photo of SS Sturmbannfuhrer Rudolf Sandig wearing a cap that appears to be very similar to the one posted. His cap does not appear to have the wool nap found on most overseas caps, and the cut seems to be very similar. The photo comes from the RZM series on Kursk. Book 3, pg.60

To the experts, how close is this to the one posted?
Stroodle

Attached Files

Rudolf Sandig.jpg (43.4 KB, 340 views)

**phild** · 08-28-2007, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by Stroodle View Post

I know little about soft caps...please exscuse me. The photo posted looked familiar to me so I started looking thru some books. I have attached a photo of SS Sturmbannfuhrer Rudolf Sandig wearing a cap that appears to be very similar to the one posted. His cap does not appear to have the wool nap found on most overseas caps, and the cut seems to be very similar. The photo comes from the RZM series on Kursk. Book 3, pg.60

To the experts, how close is this to the one posted?
Stroodle

I'm not one of the experts and it is hard to compare details of a cap on a head at an angle in a period BW photo to the one posted in this thread, but it probably looks identical to a lot of known originals and I expect nothing less of fakes posing as textbook originals.

As to the fabric, you are probably correct. Most every orignal W-SS officers OS style field cap that I have seen (maybe 20 to 30) in 35 years were made from doe-skin or more often tricot like this one. The point of my first post was that there was/is many grades (tightnes of weave and weight) of tricot worsted wool fabric. While the one posted may be period and could pass for period, it looks to me more like what I have seen on 70s vintage DDR officer uniforms...this is based on photos of the cap only mind you.

I will assure anyone that fakes of SS headgear have progressed way past being able to shoot them down on the basis of a period photo comparison.

**Schwarz** · 08-28-2007, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by Mike Dalton View Post

This cap has more questions than answers and to me, that is not a 'good' thing when it comes to SS headgear. I myself have never encountered a 'gaberdine' material o'seas cap in field-grey. I have seen them in blue for Luft. I also have issues with the lining(enlisted type) and the insignia. The eagle is a flatwire and the skull appears to be white and the white piping is a bit too pristine bright white for my tastes. I will go so far as to say that the skull is not good.

The YK is flatwire and not white, just looks like that on the photo and as far as the TK goes, there is nothing wrong with it !!!

**Schwarz** · 08-28-2007, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by phild View Post

I don't know one way or the other so pehaps I should not even comment...take it with a grain of salt. Here are may concerns:

1. In the photos the cap fabric (both color and nature of the tricot weave) looks very much like DDR officer uniform cloth to me. 2. The piping is much too "fuzzy" than what I would like to see. 3. While they may in fact orginal, I have real doubts on both the eagle and skull. 4. The entire cap is just a little too "TEXTBOOK" for me. Perfect stiching in cap body and insignia, perfect shape of cut, perfect condition (no apparent age even!) In other words this cap looks very contrived to look a certain way rather than just be a certain item for utility use made to conform to a regulation pattern.

My long pitched question to the collecting community is this: If in item is perfect made (i.e. 100% textbook) does that make it original?

Well my answer is NO, not at all. Any psuedo sharp collector can find some fault with anything that was made during WWII, but they will have a very hard time finding anything wrong with a perfect textbook fake. It's come full circle.

Maybe you just dont like "TEXTBOOK" items, maybe you like the salty ones, so do i but i really cannot find a mistake on this one and btw, go to SS Relix.com and you will see a very similar overseas cap, also in mint condition and yet it is 100 % real !!!

**Panzergrenadiere71** · 08-28-2007, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by Schwarz View Post

Maybe you just dont like "TEXTBOOK" items, maybe you like the salty ones, so do i but i really cannot find a mistake on this one and btw, go to SS Relix.com and you will see a very similar overseas cap, also in mint condition and yet it is 100 % real !!!

Could you post better pics of the sidecap?

Best
Emilio

**Schwarz** · 08-28-2007, 06:03 PM

This Waffen-SS Officers M 40 side cap shows almost no wear. It looks brand new and would be considered a fake by many collectors for that fact alone and not any other visible proof !

1. Flatwire eagle & skull are totally corect
2. Material is 100 % textbook period used tricot
3. Partial leather sweatband has no smell of leather and shows age
4. Stamp is corect
5. Shape and stitching are 100 % corect

...and therefore i have no reasons to doubt this cap except for the fact that it shows no wear, which is however not enough to brand it a fake and even if i am wrong i shall keep it because it is just beautiful !
There will be more closeup pics and interior but i will ask my friend Benvk to post them for me as soon as i come home !

**phild** · 08-28-2007, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by Schwarz View Post

This Waffen-SS Officers M 40 side cap shows almost no wear. It looks brand new and would be considered a fake by many collectors for that fact alone and not any other visible proof !

1. Flatwire eagle & skull are totally corect
2. Material is 100 % textbook period used tricot
3. Partial leather sweatband has no smell of leather and shows age
4. Stamp is corect
5. Shape and stitching are 100 % corect

...and therefore i have no reasons to doubt this cap except for the fact that it shows no wear, which is however not enough to brand it a fake and even if i am wrong i shall keep it because it is just beautiful !
There will be more closeup pics and interior but i will ask my friend Benvk to post them for me as soon as i come home !

Schwarz, You are correct in your points above and I do not have anything against mint items. In fact I believe that the majority of cloth items that survive today were mint or near mint at the end of the war....many of them have not made it the 60+ years since in that condition, but many have.

You are in a much better position to judge the material than I so I will accept you opinion on that aspect as well.

From what I see in the photos I can not find anything that screams that the cap itself is fake. The flatwire insignia is not someting that I have a lot of experience with. If the insignia was confirmed to be original that obviously would be a big plus in the cap's favor.

**Schwarz** · 08-29-2007, 02:54 AM

Thank's, will post more pics as soon as i get home !!!

**B. N. Singer** · 08-29-2007, 06:50 AM

An interesting attempt IMHO.

B. N. Singer

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