W-SS early nco visor

[kim midtlyng]

hi ernst!
on your request I will make some comments on this cap.
I know there are others on this forum with more knowlege on this
subject then me, and you must take those comments in mind.
I have seen it before on photos, and I like what I see.

As to the general construction of the cap, there was no difference if it was coloured or not. It is however unusual to se the pipings combined at the rear of the cap. Usually I see the seam on the sides or at 4 and 8 o`clock. I would say that having the seam of the cap band and pipings at the same place would be a fragile spot. If one seam tear they would all go... from a taylors point of view.(not that I am a taylor, but I do the curtains at home )
I guess we have all seen a lot of different piping seams. From the overlapping seam to seams at front of the cap. I guess the cap makers had new workers
to... or different standards.

Leather strap: On my new ss nco visor, that I have not emailed photos of yet to you ernst, It has the most lovely stamp I have ever seen on a strap. It has the "rzm logo L10/4/39 ss." I also have ss leather straps without stamps at all.
and straps with only the makers stamp.
If there is a date stamp to the strap, this is when the strap was made. Not the cap.

The piping material is correct from what I can see. the skull is for shure a m1/24
From what I know of this cap I would say you can sleep well at night. If you are not afraid of the dark or some one trying to brake in and take it

I belive this cap could be made in the period of the coloured piping. (1940)
The interior I would say match the 1939 stamp on the strap. but we have seen allgemeine interiors on waffen ss caps. and the cap maker would hopefully use the stock of linings prior to not use it.

kim

[Bob Coleman]

Hi BoB
Can you please talk about your feelings cause they summa summarum leave this IMO 100% original visor as a bad one. Enlighten me with pictures and documentations for comparement to the other colore piped visors you have.

There exist little documentation on these colore piped visors so I hope you will post all your picture and documentation for proving your vague feelings, if not then I am not getting any wiser...

I AM NOT SURE I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTIONS. HOWEVER, LET US BACK UP FOR ONE SECOND. I STATED IN MY POST THAT I WOULD WANT TO RESERVE FINAL OPINION BASED UPON A HANDS ON-WHICH OF COURSE WILL NOT HAPPEN.
WHEN ONE POSTS AN SS VISOR CAP, IT ALWAYS IS GOING TO BE SCRUTINIZED FOR INCONSISTANT FEATURES FROM KNOWN ORIGINAL PERIOD HATS. ADD BRANCH PIPING TO THE HAT, AND THE SCRUTINY WILL BE 100% HIGHER. THE OPINION I POSTED WAS CONCURING WITH THE ITEMS BROUGHT UP BY NTZ AND ROBERT HASSLER. I HAVE NEVER ENCOUNTERED A DATED CHIN STRAP ON A SS HAT. IS IT POSSIBLE? MAYBE/MAYBE NOT. THE POOR CENTERING OF THE REAR SEAM IS OF THE GREATEST CONCERN. POSSIBLY, YOU ARE JUST A POOR PHOTOGRAPHER.
YOU HAVE THE HAT IN HAND AND THEREFORE MUST MAKE THE FINAL JUDGEMENT IF THE HAT IS ORIGINAL PERIOD OR NOT. THE REST OF US CAN ONLY BASE OUR JUDGEMENT ON WHAT YOU HAVE SHOWN US.
GOOD LUCK!

[NTZ]

I like Bob would reserve any judgment without a hands on. I do not know anything about dated straps so that did not even enter my mind. What I do see (and maybe it is bad photos) is a visor that has poor shape and uneven seams. It does not look symmetrical. At least from the pics show. In person it may look much different. Couple that with matched butting piping in the rear and I would only say use your best judgment. Is the cap bad? I don’t know? I the cap good! I don’t know! If you had it in hand and you are experienced with visors I would leave judgment of originality solely up to you. You posted the visor with the hopes everyone would praise it. Sorry but praise does not always come easy on a color piped SS.

[jotuntroll]

Hi

NTZ and Bob. Since you where sceptic to the visor and now you are meaning that a hands on inspection would be the only way to make you surten if it is genuine, then you must know what you have liked with other colore piped visors. I ask for documentation to compare or to show what you are unsurten of.
It is such a rare item colore piped ss visors and I guess other collectors would appreciate info-pictures.


Bob`s questions:

I HAVE NEVER ENCOUNTERED A DATED CHIN STRAP ON A SS HAT. IS IT POSSIBLE? MAYBE/MAYBE NOT. THE POOR CENTERING OF THE REAR SEAM IS OF THE GREATEST CONCERN. POSSIBLY, YOU ARE JUST A POOR PHOTOGRAPHER.

Answars:
1.Regarding a date stamped chinstrap I do not know. Anybody out there with a date stamped chinstrap?

2.I am not a professional photographer but I took additional pics to show you. The crown is stuffed and it is not like to take a picture of a straight pice of cloth. You know what I mean.

Any pics of colored piped ss visors to compare to mine?
Anyone got anything to prove this beauty wrong?

[Bob Coleman]

I Have Only Encountered Two Branch Piped Visor Caps Over My Years Of Collecting I Would Have Considered Genuine And Period.
The Question Is Not Having Other Color Piped Hats To Compare Your Hat To. The Question Is, Does Your Hat Conform To The Standard Manufacturing Practices Expected In A Period 3rd Reich Visor Cap? Manufacturing Process That Would Have Been Found On White Piped Would Be Identical To Those Found On Color Piped Hats. There Should Be No Differences Except For Those Of Manufacturers Peculiarites. The Standards Of Quality Should Always Be Similar. These Are The Questions Raised For Discussion-nothing More.

[jotuntroll]

A good and reasonable question Bob. Most know that W-SS did have variations regarding stamping, stiching of waffenfarbe, WH produced parts etc. Additionally there were personal made visors.
Mr. Midtlyng has also a view on craftsmen or lack of experience.
Did inmates make them?
An early colored piped visor could experiance some of these including use of allgemeine materials and insignia.
I really want people to show their photos and knowledge on these rare caps
BTW Have a happy easter hollyday!

[N.C. Wyeth]

Any pics of colored piped ss visors to compare to mine?

jotuntroll,

Since we don't actually get to see any GOOD color-piped visors very often, maybe you could get Bob, NTZ, and everyone else to take another look at this one again - they might have some beneficial "comparison" comments for you and all of us alike on this subject afterwards . . . I know it's out of my league . . .

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=KL+visor+cap

I've always liked this one, and I've often thought it would be nice if enough knowledgeful people participating here could HONESTLY put enough "warm and fuzzy" feeling comments on it, that maybe it would become worthy of being "PINNED" here on the forum as a good start to reference on these things - especially since NOBODY seems to have any good ones around to show when the need arises. Yes, they are uncommon to say the least, but they have to exist - and I think it's time we had some good QUICK reference easily accesible around here on the Forum for times like these! Maybe this could be the start of a nice new "PINNED" subject? What say you guys?

Brad

[NTZ]

Good idea Brad. Now we just have to find a few we all agree on. A good start would be ones with unquestionable provenance. I mean direct from the vets hands type or ones with photos of the owner wearing them or something like that. I know I don't have one.

[Dave Kane]

This probably belongs here too:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=213158&page=2

[Bob Curuthers]

The Question Is, Does Your Hat Conform To The Standard Manufacturing Practices Expected In A Period 3rd Reich Visor Cap? Manufacturing Process That Would Have Been Found On White Piped Would Be Identical To Those Found On Color Piped Hats. There Should Be No Differences Except For Those Of Manufacturers Peculiarites. The Standards Of Quality Should Always Be Similar.

EXACTLY!
Also, why is it when negative opinions are given about an item, those defending said item, always ask for documented evidence to prove this?
That in mind, those defending the item, can the produce any documented evidence proving they are right?
Bob

[Bob Curuthers]

This probably belongs here too:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=213158&page=2

Dave, I think in post 27, quoted above, you summed it up perfectly
Bob