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**stonemint** · 03-31-2007, 06:01 PM

I'm inclined to give it a thumbs up--but I agree with Nick, it is a first for me as well seeing untreated pasteboard. I would expect to see it on a very late war cap (and I am thinking of the Dachau SS M-43's cardboard visors), but I do think that this was a cottage-maker variation. The sweatband compostition indicates that it could be a late war piece, although not necessarily, especially given the silk lining and all-bullion insignia.

This hat could be one that puts to death the "textbook" issue that all pasteboard should be coated.

Albert, I give it a

--and, if you ever want to part with the Medical Marke Standard, you know where to find me!

PS--I love the J.Sperb bag--it is the first I have ever seen, and rarer than the hat itself, and IMHO, worth more than the hat--further, now the daggers guys no longer have a monopoly on the term "Bagged & Tagged"!

**NTZ** · 03-31-2007, 06:14 PM

I am not so quick to dismiss it as late war. I have owned late war Erel’s, Pekuro’s and Schellenberg’s not to mention unknown makers and they were treated or composite. In fact I just went down to the war room and looked at all my visors including EM/NCO contract caps and they are all treated or composite. I don’t think this is something you can just write off to late war. Either we are misreading what that material is via the pics or something is wrong. The pasteboard is the guts, the core and the foundation of the cap. The whole shape and stability of the cap is depending on that pasteboard. I don’t think lacquer or what ever else they treated these with was a scarce, time consuming or an expensive item. Who would make a cap that if taken out in the rain or if it got wet would deteriorate and fall apart? Go take a piece of cardboard with that thickness and run it under the water for a few seconds. Let me know what happens to it.

**NTZ** · 03-31-2007, 06:20 PM

Let me add that I just ran down and checked 13 US visors, two Soviet and one Italian. Evey single one has a mesh, fiber or treated material. That is like making a raincoat out of paper.

**sturmbannfuhrer** · 04-01-2007, 01:50 AM

Blue liners are a sign that the cap maker was possibly a prolific kreigsmarine cap maker, hence the abundance of the blue stuff inside. I have seen a few caps with this blue liner treatment, personally I prefer the cream or champagne colours, but if real, an interesting variation.

**Albert** · 04-01-2007, 05:08 AM

Originally posted by NTZ View Post

Let me add that I just ran down and checked 13 US visors, two Soviet and one Italian. Evey single one has a mesh, fiber or treated material. That is like making a raincoat out of paper.

I very well see what you mean. I looked at my Soviet visors and they all seem to have untreated pressed cardboard for band material. Here is what it looks like (EM Motor Rifle visor):

Attached Files

Card.JPG (96.1 KB, 70 views)

**Albert** · 04-01-2007, 05:11 AM

Originally posted by Albert View Post

...I looked at my Soviet visors and they all seem to have untreated pressed cardboard for band material. Here is what it looks like (EM Motor Rifle visor):

Now, one could argue that those caps were not likely to be worn in rain too often as they were for walking out and parade use. But this one was for field use; an officer subdued field cap:

Attached Files

Card2.JPG (52.6 KB, 69 views)

**Albert** · 04-01-2007, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by Albert View Post

Now one could argue that those caps were not likely to be worn in rain too often as they were for walking out and parade use. But this one was for field use; an officer subdued field cap:

... and here is its band liner: untreated and not even excesively pressed cardboard:

Attached Files

Card3.JPG (69.9 KB, 69 views)

**NTZ** · 04-01-2007, 06:31 AM

Albert in pic #20 I can see a waffle pattern. It has some composite fiber in it. Pic#22 is hard to tell but I do see some fibers running through it. My best guess is it has something in the cardboard to beef it up.

I can only tell you I have NEVER seen plain untreated cardboard in any pre1945 German visor. If anyone has please post a pic.

Albert, maybe yours does have some type of coating to it and you just can't tell? Feel the texture of it and compare it to the inside of the cardboard where the holes for the stitching come through.

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