Does Anyone Remember This Diplo Hat Controversy?

[stonemint]

I just purchased this book which came out in 1995. I recall that back in 1999 or 2000, this diplo hat on the cover was the subject of a dispute as to whether it was real or not (and I believe it was owned by Angolia).
What I do recall for sure is that it was sold on e-bay around that time.
My recollection is that the maker label was missing--but several experts had seen it, and had given it the thumbs down. I was wondering if anyone recalled this hat and the controversy around it, and whether anyone kept pictures of it for reference:

[stonemint]

As an aside, you would always see regular contributors to these Bender books--a Ron Kwan; Bill Rentz; Josef Charita, John Coy, etc (I know Ed Stadnicki and Tom Shutt are deceased, and I believe Len Champion and Gordon Mandley are as well--but correct me if I am wrong.)

You also see in the other headgear books a Jack Hatter; Steve Weigel; Clyde Davis; Thomas Flurchick; Daryl Shirley;Bill Dienna; Harper Noehren;
and lastly, Pat Moran and Jon Maguire.

I guess my basic question is are these guys still alive/collecting, and does anyone know them? And then, are any of them members here, and if so, why don't they contribute to the hobby?

(Bob Coleman, you'll note I omitted your name from this list--you are one of the very few super-advanced collectors I know who contributes to this hobby on a regular basis )

[Bob Hritz]

Bill Dienna is a regular contributor.

I have spoken to a number of the gentlemen on the list and they just don't have time for the internet. Most are busy making a living and collecting. I am sure there is no indended slight, but the amount of time necessary for regular contributions can become a full time job.

Oh, I believe that they DO contribute to the hobby by sharing their collections via the reference books. No one OWES anything to the collecting community, it is done out of good intentions and often repaid with vile spite.

Bob Hritz

[Bob Coleman]

I have known John Coy for many years. Roger Bender many years ago complied a photographic collection of John's hats. He has recycled those pictures many times over the years. I do not believe John participates in or uses a computer.
The last I heard of Jack Hatter, a retired USAF officer, he was living n Pennsylvania and selling books on militaria. As far as I know, he ceased collecting many years ago. He used to be a regular at the Max Show. Jack bought a large part of my collection when I changed fields in 1972. Ron Kwan lived in California and was a major player in the headgear collecting field in the 60's and 70's. I believe he has sold most of his collection and is presently living in Hawaii and inactive.
A little information from the past. I must add that when I reentered the field of collecting 3rd Reich material in the late 90's, I was just in time to be reintroduced to the latest high end fakes. They looked like Erels and Clement Wagner caps as I remembered them from 25+ years past. It took me nearly two years to find out that I had become a major sucker for one particular dealer. I have since learned to educate myself as well as possible. I have studied the aging effects on cloth. The hats that looked like the ones I owned in 1965 have changed in color and condition in 40+ years. I can state this as a fact as I have seen and also repurchased some of the pieces I owned so long ago. Too fresh is always a alarm alert for me. They can exist. However, the majority of those that look like they were made just last week likely were. I like to refer to them as products of the 4th Reich.
I am still relearning much and please, do not consider me an expert. The fakers today are good and want to get your money. I have no doubt they continually monitor these Forums and look for photographic evidence of where they have erred. Unfortunately, as we educate ourselves, we are also helping out our worst enemies.

[Bob Coleman]

Oh, I believe that they DO contribute to the hobby by sharing their collections via the reference books. No one OWES anything to the collecting community, it is done out of good intentions and often repaid with vile spite.

Bob Hritz[/quote]

Bob-
So well stated. So often, I see the same names over and over again posting items with the statement "I don't know anything about this stuff, but--IT LOOKS GOOD TO ME." How can you tell it looks good if you are a no nothing?
This type of "collector" is my pet peeve with on line forums. Guys who have no library, are too lazy or cheap to aquire one, likely no collection and seem to think that they are entitled to the hard earned knowledge of all of those who have spent many years and lost many dollars collecting and learning the hard way. it is interesting as you see the same names pop up time and again asking for free appraisals. "I am entitled to it because I am me" attitude. I will probably catch some heat for this but that attitude is one of the major reasons most of the serious guys no longer participate. My thoughts for what they are worth.

[NTZ]

So often, I see the same names over and over again posting items with the statement "I don't know anything about this stuff, but--IT LOOKS GOOD TO ME." How can you tell it looks good if you are a no nothing?

I just did this yesterday!

[Bob Coleman]

I just did this yesterday!

Nick-
All of us have to make that statement at one time or another. My comments were aimed at those who take and never give any thing back. The new breed of collector who do not take the time to learn anything and continually rely upon the expertise of collectors such as yourself for opinions and free appraisals. Nick, if you notice when you do help someone out, the majority of these new collectors even feel they need the time to thank you personally for saving their hide.

[mjfur]

Harper Noehren is a friend of mine, he still collects. Alot of his collection has appeared in different books.

Regards,
Mike

[Chris_Werner]

Bob and Bob:
Your points are well taken. I personally do greatly appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge and hard work in research with all of us on the forum.
I think there are those of us who enjoy each and every thread, and learn from them and apply the general knowledge to enrich our own enjoyment and knowledge base of our collecting endeavors.
Then there are those whom you have described who only seem to want to know about the particular piece they have put up for discussion, and nothing more about the field in general, i.e.: "Is this hat real? What is it worth?"
Those are the "takers" who do not add to our hobby in my opinion.
Best regards, and Thank You!
Chris Werner

[Ken B.]

The last I heard of Jack Hatter, a retired USAF officer, he was living n Pennsylvania and selling books on militaria.

Jack always has his book stands at the local shows in my area. PA & NJ.

Here is his website:

http://www.ww2bks.com/pages/1/index.htm

[Dan T.]

Didn't John Coy own "The Stuka" over in Illinois?

[Fred Green]

a

Greetings All,

John Coy still owns "The Stuka" in Illinois. He did not attend the Badger Show in February this year and from what I heard he is very ill.

Fred Green

[stonemint]

Bob Hritz--sorry, I did not mean to overlook your valued contributions--especially from a fellow "zonie" --I agree with what you said--I am just trying to figure out who the "big name" hat collectors are that are still out there collecting, and whether or not they are members.

To everyone else: I agree with the fact that no one owes anyone anything in this hobby, and that some of the responses do tend to make one not want to post or contribute, however, I believe this forum has been (and is) one of the more civilized forums, where everyone truly contributes--I dont care if it is some garden-variety postal hat in bad shape, or a stonemint A-SS visor--the more we see, the more we learn, and thus stay one-step ahead of the fakers.
I (like most of us) work 12-hour days in what some would describe as a somewhat confrontational setting. This hobby (and forum) is my "de-stressor"--not only the art of collecting itself, but also sharing the knowledge I have gained over the past 30 years (and I still only consider myself an advanced-intermediate collector). I can recall going to shows in the midwest while in high-school and college in the late 70's and early 80'sand dealing with the "old salt" dealers (guys who, back then, were in their 50s)--and they were extremely reluctant to share information--and like everyone else, I got burned.
So what I try to do is educate, and impart the knowledge I have amassed (which isn't all that much that the average collector doesn't already know) on this forum. Secrecy always was a pet peeve of mine, and while I realize there are fakers who read these posts, however they never will be able to duplicate the characteristics of an Erel, Schellenberg, etc--and this forum teaches us these peculiarities.

Anyway, I am rambling on and will get off my soapbox--I just want to thank all that have posted on the forum (especially "the Bobs"), and in my book, sharing is the greatest thing about a hobby--so keep on posting

[NTZ]

Stonemint, I too love the forum. I can learn just as much here if not more than I can handling pieces. You can only get so many visors in your hands in a given amount of time. My fascination is the intricate details associated with each maker. The more you can learn about basic construction and then advance to particulars per maker the less likely you are to ever get burned (again). It is a learning curve that never ends. Every day you find something new, even from makers you thought you knew inside and out. Two examples of that are two Erel’s. I must have owned over 20 Erel’s in my collecting life plus countless more I have handled. The one visor I thought was bad where Gerard corrected me is an example. After talking to him about its origin at the SOS I realized that that one was good and just an odd production fluke. There is another one a fellow member shared with me recently. If it were posted here I am sure it would have its detractors but IMO it was right as rain. I asked the owner if it had a very small and mostly unknown detail in Erel construction. It did and that was more than enough for me to realize it was a good cap built by Lubstein, just a bit out of the norm. Learning these little details can not only save you money but also put you in a position to pick up a great piece others might shy away from. This forum and collecting in general is a never-ending learning process. It adds fun and mystery to collecting and keeps us one step above the fakers. With all that being said there are just a few details about certain makers I will never publicly disclose on the forum. It is my advantage over the idiots who put together these fakes and surely read our posts. If it comes down to helping a fellow collector I am more than willing to share that info off-line but not publicly.

[Paul McKee]

Greetings All,

John Coy still owns "The Stuka" in Illinois. He did not attend the Badger Show in February this year and from what I heard he is very ill.

Fred Green

I was wondering where John was. He was conspicuously absent from his usual corner spot. I hope its not a serious illness. I've known John since the early 70's.

Paul