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**Glenn McInnes** · 12-31-2006, 03:47 PM

Textbook in my opinion is "how it left the factory" (or hat makers) and in untouched,unaltered condition.

Glenn

**phild** · 12-31-2006, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by stonemint View Post

OK, Gents, I want to open up the proverbial "can of worms" by attempting to get a consensus as to what exactly defines "textbook" as far as visorcaps (Schirmmuetzen) are concerned (at least according to us members of the WAF). I have several NON-textbook hats in my collection, which I am perfectly content with as far as their originality, so don't take this as an affront. Anyway, here are my preliminary observations:

1. Piping that does NOT overlap (ie, the end-to-end joining method known as abutting).

2. Crosshatching on the Vulcanfiber visor.

3. Chincords that point northeast in terms of the diagonal twist.

4. Hand-sewn linings.

5. Pleats to the lining.

6. Calfskin (not cowhide) sweatbands--this is assuming it is not oilcloth or paper.

7. Matching finish on the metal insignia.

8. Visor reverse color which matches the color of the sweatband.

9. Cockade/wreaths completely within the upper/lower band piping (with the obvious exception of Police, KM, NSDAP, etc.)

10. The base wool (the wool below the bottom-most piping on the cap) being a different weave/quality that the crown.

This is not really a discussion on repro/fake caps--I want others to add any other charateristics they consider "textbook," but I especially want to solicit comment as to why any of these criteria should not be considered. Then, if/when we have some consensus, we can start another thread: "Post Your NON-Textbook Visor Caps!" (I, for one, will contribute!)

In my experience your items 2,4,5,7,8 and 10 (and possibly the others in some cases) are incorrect in so far as having to always be found on original peak caps. I personally dis-like the term textbook because like so very many collector and dealer words and terms always used in this hobby, it means really nothing. It's a sales and feel good gimick that people like pitching out there to make them feel good about the item being original. All bunk!

The problem is that war and outfitting 15 million soldiers is not a college course! If the term textbook is supossed to mean "period done" then fine, but we all know that the term is really double speak for "what the herd consensus believes and accepts" and this is what bothers me.

Furthermore, it is no big deal these days and even could be considered the rule that high end fakes are made with every little detail that is so fondly referred to as textbook, so there is no reason to feel good about an item just because it can be described as textbook.

**phild** · 12-31-2006, 06:20 PM

Let me also add to just one of the items above, matching metal finish on insignia number 7, this was always a big wives tale from the early 1970s and is apparently still out there today in some circles. This was always brought up by the expert when he was looking at a cap to buy for some reason!

I would say that it was generally true that most caps were delivered with badges made from the same metal purely by chance, who knows how they actually finished the war. Due to the overlap of use of these many different base metals there is little doubt that insignia was often mixed from the factory and or the retailer, untouched period items bear this out. The other fact is that insignia looked much closer to the same when new regardless if they were fine zink, aluminium, plated tombac, or "german silver", the metal color was not that different. The way that these metals have oxidized in the decades since the war have made them look much more different today (and in the 60s and 70s) than they did when new and the first few years that they were in use.

There is no doubt to me, because I have seen it done so much, that many of the matched insignia visor caps today have been put into this state since 1945. These are the caps lauded as "texbook". It is not that big of a deal to me as I have learned to get a grip and not throw myself off of a tall building just because a piece of insignia may have be changed on an item!

The criteria always start out as guides and helpful hints, then become rules that can not bend, then gospel and finally the only things that matter in judging an item as primo or trash.....this is such a shame and a sham.

**Glenn Barbaritz** · 12-31-2006, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post

Textbook in my opinion is "how it left the factory" (or hat makers) and in untouched,unaltered condition.

Glenn

I'll definitely agree with this statement when it comes to any piece of militaria.

thats all thats important to me. variations did exist. who cares as long is its 100% unaltered. Glenn

**Suber** · 12-31-2006, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by Glenn Barbaritz View Post

I'll definitely agree with this statement when it comes to any piece of militaria.

thats all thats important to me. variations did exist. who cares as long is its 100% unaltered. Glenn

Also agreed with 100%!!

**phild** · 12-31-2006, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post

Textbook in my opinion is "how it left the factory" (or hat makers) and in untouched,unaltered condition.

Glenn

My standard is how it left the soldiers hands at time of last use. My interest is militaria and it's application to warfare and not manufacturing/factory operations, so whether it is a baseball from the 51 worldseries or a PZ wrap tunic it's conection with it's intended use is much more important than it being in the exact condition that it left the factory in.

By definition every camo helmet, full insignia set up tunic and unit marked firearm (just to list a few) had been altered from it's factory condition. I like these type items and although some may call them "messed with" I prefer them over factory condition items.

**Glenn Barbaritz** · 12-31-2006, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by phild View Post

My standard is how it left the soldiers hands at time of last use. My interest is militaria and it's application to warfare and not manufacturing/factory operations, so whether it is a baseball from the 51 worldseries or a PZ wrap tunic it's conection with it's intended use is much more important than it being in the exact condition that it left the factory in.

By definition every camo helmet, full insignia set up tunic and unit marked firearm (just to list a few) had been altered from it's factory condition. I like these type items and although some may call them "messed with" I prefer them over factory condition items.

ok Phild, you got me.

I definitely agree with your statement also. I dont care if the soldier altered the piece during the war as long as it isnt "messed with" after. your right in your comment.

I guess theres 2 different kinds of "textbook". Glenn

**NTZ** · 01-01-2007, 07:06 AM

Well let’s discuss 1 through 10. I will start.

#1 I am not too sure that I have seen another method although I would keep an open mind.

#2 I have seen non-crosshatched visors on Luft and SS visors. You also have crosshatched visors with light cross-hatching that are heavily lacquered so there is no evidence of it. Then we have the pressed paper visor. Did these exist pre 1945? This could be a whole discussion right here.

#3 I used to feel this way but have without any doubt been proven wrong.

#4 I would say this is pretty much set in stone except for one exception. I believe that it was the maker J.Sperb that machine sewn his linings.

#5 All linings have some form of pleats although they differ in depth, length, quality, etc.

#6 I have seen what I believe to be cowhide on period visors. It looks like it is most seen on later war caps for some reason.

#7 I don’t believe in this one at all

#8 I have seen matched, unmatched it does not mater. There is no rhyme or reason sometimes.

#9 Nope, I have seen way too many period photos of insignia crossing over the piping.

#10 No again! I have seen originals with matching base and cap. It seems to be more prominent in SS visors for some reason.

Let me add two more.

Did the pressed paper visor exist pre 1945 on army or SS visors?

The rear seam of the cap band. Has anyone ever seen a cap made with the seam of the cap band in front as opposed to the rear? I have a few times, the caps look period but I would like to here more opinions on this one.

**TONY Q.W.** · 01-01-2007, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by NTZ View Post

The rear seam of the cap band. Has anyone ever seen a cap made with the seam of the cap band in front as opposed to the rear? I have a few times, the caps look period but I would like to here more opinions on this one.

Hi Nick and Happy New Year,

The only time that I have seen the seam of the cap band in the front is in all my Luft visors. Non of my Heer visors have a front seam.

As far as pressed paper visors go, I personally believe in that they existed while ww2, although I don't own any of it.

**NTZ** · 01-01-2007, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by TONY Q.W. View Post

Hi Nick and Happy New Year,

The only time that I have seen the seam of the cap band in the front is in all my Luft visors. Non of my Heer visors have a front seam.

Hi Tony, I have seen it twice on army visors. On one I had in my hands once and one from pics another member sent me. Two different makers. I am pretty certain both visors were period but I did have some room for doubt.

**TONY Q.W.** · 01-01-2007, 07:38 AM

Personally, If I felt the rest of the cap was a 100, I would't mind a front seam, I quess.

**kim midtlyng** · 01-01-2007, 08:25 AM

Happy new year every one!

First of all, who am I to take place in this discussion as a new member?
Well I have been collecting visor caps for many years and I have a few of them.
I have also been a member of other forums, but is always looking for more places
to discuss and learn.

As to "textbook" caps I agree with the statments posted, it`s a cap with all the "right" features often discribed in books. Easy to sell, because the buyer do not need to be a expert. How hard is it to sell a genuine waffen ss cap that is non textbook? I have collected a lot of non textbook visor caps, and for me they present a new level of collecting. Meaning spending more time looking into the cap.

What I realy want to discuss is the use of pressed paper visors. I have some of them. All of my pressed paper visors exept one I belive is late war Erel caps.
This one exeption is a Pioniere nco from Clemens Wagner with crosshatched
and light brown underside, all made in pressed paper.
The other visors are all black without any crosshatching.
They all have this in common:
1: Fine grade trikot cloth.
2: Very light weight.
3: Unmarked lining.
4: Hand written two digits noumbers in top crown lining.

One of the caps I have is Erel marked to the sweath band, and have the "standard" Erel type sweath band. All of the rest have very simple "fold over" sweath bands. I have spent months and years riddeling over this subject.
Untill I came over a late war Truppensonderdienst officer cap. It was very light weight, fine grade trikot, it had paper visor all black and simple fold over sweath band in black leather.
The interesting part was that it had the erel logo in the lining.
"Offizier kleiderkasse, berlin, Erel sonderklasse, Extra."
This was for me the key to the box of riddles.
I will post pictures as soon as I`m able to do this.
I know that a lot of collector belive this not to be true, well I could not care less. I dont see it to be my job to convince the collectors around the globe about this subject.( but I am trying!) This is only my oppinion on the paper visors. And yes the visors in my collection are all genuine...

So I belive the paper visors existed before 1945, I belive other producers
than Erel used them. I think they came into production late in the war, and therfore may be mixed with parts bearing the producers logo.
all in the meaning of saving production costs.

Happy to continue this discussion..

regards

Kim Midtlyng

**Albert** · 01-01-2007, 09:41 AM

One cap, two or more "anomalies", yet text book:

Attached Files

Med Visor 001.JPG (89.9 KB, 546 views)

**Albert** · 01-01-2007, 09:43 AM

Pressed paper visor:

Attached Files

Med Visor 004.JPG (71.0 KB, 546 views)

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