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**Tim O'Keefe** · 11-21-2006, 12:55 AM

Hello Chris,
Thankyou for your story of Sidi Rezegh. It is very sad about Ltn.
I too note this time every year as this battle is very interesting.
For Desert warfare solder it was very grim winner take all bloody battle.
The rapidily changing troop dispositions , brutal weather conditions and enviroment. The fact that the British surprised the Germans completely
and Rommel was not at his best to say the least, the introduction of the Honey and its 37mm gun instead of the undergunned 2lb among other things.
Many lessons can be learned from this battle about armoured warfare.

Back to DAK caps thanks also for your comments all are good points.
These mint soutache caps on the market must each be carefully looked at, some are ok original soutache if pre-Aug 42 and others post war or even recently added. The mint caps with soutache dated post Aug 42 have been added recently in the last few years perhaps? or am I getting off base here?
The stiching and type of thread could give it away maybe?

While he could only cope with a Brigade of Diggers, he would be happy to lead an Army of Kiwi's according to Rommel...(sorry Digger mates).
Agian thanks for your personel notes on Sidi Rezegh Chris.
The Airfield itself now is the focus of the battle 65 years ago today.

Tim

**90th Light** · 11-26-2006, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by Tim O'Keefe View Post

Hello Chris,
Thankyou for your story of Sidi Rezegh. It is very sad about Ltn.
I too note this time every year as this battle is very interesting.
For Desert warfare solder it was very grim winner take all bloody battle.
The rapidily changing troop dispositions , brutal weather conditions and enviroment. The fact that the British surprised the Germans completely
and Rommel was not at his best to say the least, the introduction of the Honey and its 37mm gun instead of the undergunned 2lb among other things.
Many lessons can be learned from this battle about armoured warfare.

Back to DAK caps thanks also for your comments all are good points.
These mint soutache caps on the market must each be carefully looked at, some are ok original soutache if pre-Aug 42 and others post war or even recently added. The mint caps with soutache dated post Aug 42 have been added recently in the last few years perhaps? or am I getting off base here?
The stiching and type of thread could give it away maybe?

While he could only cope with a Brigade of Diggers, he would be happy to lead an Army of Kiwi's according to Rommel...(sorry Digger mates).
Agian thanks for your personel notes on Sidi Rezegh Chris.
The Airfield itself now is the focus of the battle 65 years ago today.

Tim

Hello again Tim sorry I have not replied sooner.

You know your stuff about Sidi Rezeagh. I did not think that battle would be of that much interest to some-one living in America ? It is veiwed by many here in New Zealand as a major mistake by the New Zealand Division. We allowed ourselves to get surrounded and paid the price but we were up against the "Fox"

In reply to your question about the caps, how many DAK caps with added soutaches are you seeing ? because I have only ever seen 2 ever that I feel were right with the soutache added or changed. Note I am referring to side- caps here not M41 visor caps. They did change soutaches but finding an original example of this today is scarse to say the least,

Chris

**John Hodgin** · 11-26-2006, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

I did not think that battle would be of that much interest to some-one living in America ?
Chris

Chris, members in the US not interested in Sidi Rezegh? A very incorrect assumption and I am a bit surprised you would think this way.
John

**90th Light** · 11-26-2006, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by John Hodgin View Post

Chris, members in the US not interested in Sidi Rezegh? A very incorrect assumption and I am a bit surprised you would think this way.
John

Hello John, no offense meant. In fact delight that there is so much interest.

I know this should not surprise me because it is the DAK and Rommel but I did not think there would be much interest in the New Zealand soldiers and to have that quote of Rommels that he could have won given New Zealand troops from an American member of the forum is a real compliment

and shows how much Tim has read. Of course this is why one may be lucky enough to find early DAK stuff here.

I belong to generation long before Peter Jackson's "Lord of the Rings" where you would say to someone that you came from New Zealand and they would say where is that ? I know it still happens today but we seem to have got more on the map.

Best regards, Chris

**John Hodgin** · 11-26-2006, 04:44 PM

Chris,

The battles for North Africa have been an interest of mine since I was eleven. Impossible to read and learn about this conflict without recognizing the contribution of New Zealand troops.

Then there is the fact that Dal is one of my best friends........ and a wonderful teacher.

Regards,
John

**Mark Gibson** · 11-27-2006, 12:59 AM

But isn't Dal originally a Queenslander?
He! He!

**NZMark** · 11-27-2006, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by Mark Gibson View Post

But isn't Dal originally a Queenslander?
He! He!

Mark,
You had to bring that up

But he did see sense in the end, didn't he?
Mark.

**John Hodgin** · 11-27-2006, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by Mark Gibson View Post

But isn't Dal originally a Queenslander?
He! He!

Oh yes, but I doubt he will be moving back there.

Then there is the fact that my son's primary professor at University is also from Auckland.

**Tim O'Keefe** · 11-27-2006, 09:16 PM

Chris

Yes when I was 10 or so, developed an interest the North African Campaign.
The 8th Army and its multi National units and the German/Italion units with their own origins like the 5th Lt Div & 361st Afrika regt. The Pacific Theatre too and the USMC made me appreciate the NZ, Aus, solders etc.

The New Zealand Div at Sidi Rezegh ' Nov 29, 41 was overun by DAK when 5th Brig was left behind on the frontier to mop up Bardia, leaving only 4th & 6th Brig. to hold Sidi Rezegh (surrounded) and push on and rescue Tobruk. After Rommels daring, hopeful, wasteful dash to the wire The DAK returned to renew the attacks on the airfield and ridges near Sidi Rezegh. 13th Corp HQ sent the South African Div to help the Kiwi's but it took time to transfer to 30th Corps HQ which informed the NZ Div of the SA Div arrival in the area. The NZ Div withdrew part of their line (circle), but the Ariete Italian Armoured Div slipped in the gap instead, at the same time the Panzers attacked from yet another direction. Also Rommel himself pushed the troops on with grim determination with the resulting high casualties...Although the NZ Div had linked up with Tobruk.
The fact that the Div did not have strong enough antitank guns (only 2lb) which were easily outranged by the Panzers forcing the 25lb Field guns to act as antitank weapons thus being exposed to direct fire and easier targets themselves. Also the British Army HQ was not willing to commit troops to help the NZ Div when they became encircled. Allowing 7th Armd Div to refit instead. The Kiwis finally had to break out of the encirclement two days later Dec 1
So the DAK had won the battle but using costly tactics could not continue the fight afterwords...

On mint sidecaps with soutache , militarycollectiblsinc.com has a few in his tropical section currently that look original to me, also nice mint tunic too. Overpriced though excellent. Bill Shea & others too.
Now these examples may have had the (exotic Transport or medical etc )soutache added at the depot where they were stocked in storage, but I doubt it...much more likely the soutache is added at the distribution depot so that size can match, then correct color soutache added.
These mint sidecaps are for sale at $1,500 to 3,000 each. If most if not all of these caps came from the "Beehive" cache and would have been "in storage" not at distripution point yet...
So imho soutache must have been added recently? or at very least post war ??
I have only seen Panzer soutached sidecaps that were issued to troops
serving in North Africa as most other branches preferred the visored cap.
Not Motor T, Medical, Pioneer, (Brown soutache early Mot Rifle ?) or other exotics. Of course each cap must be evaluated individually still seems strange that there are so many mint soutached sidcaps on the market right now...

Regards
Tim

As Americans its interesting that Tobruk was relieved finally on Dec 7 1941..... the day we finally entered the war.

After 242 days being cutoff -oohrah Desert Rats!

**90th Light** · 11-28-2006, 04:42 AM

Originally posted by Tim O'Keefe View Post

Chris

Yes when I was 10 or so, developed an interest the North African Campaign.
The 8th Army and its multi National units and the German/Italion units with their own origins like the 5th Lt Div & 361st Afrika regt. The Pacific Theatre too and the USMC made me appreciate the NZ, Aus, solders etc.

The New Zealand Div at Sidi Rezegh ' Nov 29, 41 was overun by DAK when 5th Brig was left behind on the frontier to mop up Bardia, leaving only 4th & 6th Brig. to hold Sidi Rezegh (surrounded) and push on and rescue Tobruk. After Rommels daring, hopeful, wasteful dash to the wire The DAK returned to renew the attacks on the airfield and ridges near Sidi Rezegh. 13th Corp HQ sent the South African Div to help the Kiwi's but it took time to transfer to 30th Corps HQ which informed the NZ Div of the SA Div arrival in the area. The NZ Div withdrew part of their line (circle), but the Ariete Italian Armoured Div slipped in the gap instead, at the same time the Panzers attacked from yet another direction. Also Rommel himself pushed the troops on with grim determination with the resulting high casualties...Although the NZ Div had linked up with Tobruk.
The fact that the Div did not have strong enough antitank guns (only 2lb) which were easily outranged by the Panzers forcing the 25lb Field guns to act as antitank weapons thus being exposed to direct fire and easier targets themselves. Also the British Army HQ was not willing to commit troops to help the NZ Div when they became encircled. Allowing 7th Armd Div to refit instead. The Kiwis finally had to break out of the encirclement two days later Dec 1
So the DAK had won the battle but using costly tactics could not continue the fight afterwords...

On mint sidecaps with soutache , militarycollectiblsinc.com has a few in his tropical section currently that look original to me, also nice mint tunic too. Overpriced though excellent. Bill Shea & others too.
Now these examples may have had the (exotic Transport or medical etc )soutache added at the depot where they were stocked in storage, but I doubt it...much more likely the soutache is added at the distribution depot so that size can match, then correct color soutache added.
These mint sidecaps are for sale at $1,500 to 3,000 each. If most if not all of these caps came from the "Beehive" cache and would have been "in storage" not at distripution point yet...
So imho soutache must have been added recently? or at very least post war ??
I have only seen Panzer soutached sidecaps that were issued to troops
serving in North Africa as most other branches preferred the visored cap.
Not Motor T, Medical, Pioneer, (Brown soutache early Mot Rifle ?) or other exotics. Of course each cap must be evaluated individually still seems strange that there are so many mint soutached sidcaps on the market right now...

Regards
Tim

As Americans its interesting that Tobruk was relieved finally on Dec 7 1941..... the day we finally entered the war.

After 242 days being cutoff -oohrah Desert Rats!

Hello again Tim and again thank you for sharing this with us. I am aware that we may get told off by the moderator for turning this into a thread about Sidi Rezegh but I will now share something with you, I only once met a New Zealand veteran from Sidi Rezegh. This was in 1985 and the gentleman concerned was in his seventies but he still ran 20 miles before breakfast every day and was a strict tea drinker. He said this is what got him through, his physical fitness and good diet. In the hand to hand combat he was stronger and had more indurance. He then broke down crying as he recalled some of the specific details of the fights with individual German soldiers and could not go on.

Later after a cup of tea he told me that they often got out of being surrounded by sneaking through the German positions at night. He said that one thing you could rely on was that German soldiers were very tied and would sleep. They had had no R & R since they got to Africa and the New Zealanders would get into their positions kill several and get through the line. At this point he broke down again as he recalled quietly taking a fighting knife to several young German soldiers as they slept. He said he was not proud of this but it was his duty to get back to the Allied lines and this was war.

Interesting is the wrong word to describe this Tim but this is what happened at Sidi Rezegh.

Any way as far as the caps go, one with a correctly machine stitched soutache is a far safer bet than a hand stitched soutache but like all Militaria it comes down to how much one will pay and who they buy from. In terms of the different soutaches colours, I have no problem with the range of colours which are for sale ie transport, jager, recon etc. They were all used by the DAK as well as Panzer. The important thing to look for is, that it is the correct war-time 40-42 type soutache and not the post war stuff.

Again best regards, Chris

**B. N. Singer** · 11-28-2006, 07:25 AM

[QUOTE=Tim O'Keefe;1708300]On mint sidecaps with soutache , militarycollectiblsinc.com has a few in his tropical section currently that look original to me, ... Now these examples may have had the (exotic Transport or medical etc )soutache added at the depot where they were stocked in storage, but I doubt it...much more likely the soutache is added at the distribution depot so that size can match, then correct color soutache added.
These mint sidecaps are for sale at $1,500 to 3,000 each. If most if not all of these caps came from the "Beehive" cache and would have been "in storage" not at distripution point yet...
So imho soutache must have been added recently? or at very least post war ??
im [QUOTE]

I think you would be safe with any of the ones currently being offered (regardless of branch piping color). All appear to be from the original "group" that was found many years ago and each looks as though the soutache was applied at the hat manufacturing factory, which is the ONLY WAY you can be absolutely certain of it being original to the hat. Unless of course, it is veteran acquired, and even then you will have convince others of what you have.

The white piped example is particularly noteworthy and exceptionally rare.

B. N. Singer

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