Inf Visor Cap NCO or E/M explanation required.

[RobertCOUTTS]

These may seem like a stupid question but is there a difference between an enlisted mans cap and a NCO's Cap.I have seen Caps listed as a NCO Cap but to me they appear the same as those described as an E/M Cap. This is a Cap I have had for some time was sold to me as a NCO Cap.
Cheers Bob.

[RobertCOUTTS]

NCO Visor Cap.

This is the inside of the Cap.

[Lignemaginot]

None whatsoever, although there is period photographic evidence to show that some senior NCos appear to have gone to great lengths to pinch the sides of the cap on either side of the eagle. Whether this was tolerated for other ranks, I have no idea. In addition, if you find the "pinch" on a cap today, there is no proof to say when it was done.
BR,
Clive

[Ian Hulley]

Many senior NCO's upgraded from the depot issue 'enlisted man's' or 'other rank's' cap by either personalising their issue cap or by having a better quality one tailor made for them or bought off-the-shelf (as this one is). Early on in the war only relatively senior NCO's would have been able to get away with such non-conformity,I guess standards slip when you're more concerned with not having your ass shot off though.

Your 'Stirndruckfrei' cap certainly isn't a depot issue one, so therefore I would assume it's an NCO's cap.

Cheers,Ian.

[Seigfried]

Many senior NCO's upgraded from the depot issue 'enlisted man's' or 'other rank's' cap by either personalising their issue cap or by having a better quality one tailor made for them or bought off-the-shelf (as this one is).

Your 'Stirndruckfrei' cap certainly isn't a depot issue one, so therefore I would assume it's an NCO's cap.

Cheers,Ian.

I agree - an EM/NCO Cap would be a better description IMO, with NCOs having the option to privately purchase a better quality cap.

On a similar vein - is there anything to stop a private purchase visor cap being 'upgraded' by replacing the black leather strap with an officer's quality aluminium cord?

John

[Lignemaginot]

Ian,
Sorry, I disagree with this statement; any rank had the option of privately purchasing their visor cap, the only difference being that anyone who wasn't an officer had to have it inspected by the unit - this is why you'll see a "Gepruft" stamp on the underside of the sweatband of privately purchased EM/NCO caps, but not on an officer's privately purchased cap. Government-issued caps (which by default met all the requirements) did not have Gepruft stamps.
Occasionally one will see an officer's cap with a Gepruft stamp, which indicates that the cap was upgraded from an EM/NCO cap - the question of when this upgrade was done (ie switching the black strap and buttons for the silver) can never be answered.
At least, this is my understanding from everything I've read - I wasn't there.
BR,
Clive

[fknorr]

I think the best description is Officer and 'other ranks'...you fell into either one category or the other.

[Ian Hulley]

'Ian,
Sorry, I disagree with this statement; any rank had the option of privately purchasing their visor cap, the only difference being that anyone who wasn't an officer had to have it inspected by the unit '

I do agree with you,I was speaking in general terms and didn't take that means of official approval into account. However I was meaning the unofficial practice of NCO's basically getting away with more than the squaddies when it came to personal 'interpretation' of the regulations.

Cheers,Ian.

[Seigfried]

anyone who wasn't an officer had to have it inspected by the unit - this is why you'll see a "Gepruft" stamp on the underside of the sweatband of privately purchased EM/NCO caps, but not on an officer's privately purchased cap. Government-issued caps (which by default met all the requirements) did not have Gepruft stamps.
Occasionally one will see an officer's cap with a Gepruft stamp, which indicates that the cap was upgraded from an EM/NCO cap - the question of when this upgrade was done (ie switching the black strap and buttons for the silver) can never be answered.

Clive

Cheers Clive - that has answered my question. An officers cap with a 'gepruft' stamp indicates that a private purchase cap has been 'upgraded' after issue.
Is it possible then that a standard issue ORs visor could be 'upgraded', and this would not have to have the gepruft stamp. The only giveaway may be that an officer would wear a standard issue OR visor cap.
John

John

[Donald Abenheim]

richtig

Ian,
Sorry, I disagree with this statement; any rank had the option of privately purchasing their visor cap, the only difference being that anyone who wasn't an officer had to have it inspected by the unit - this is why you'll see a "Gepruft" stamp on the underside of the sweatband of privately purchased EM/NCO caps, but not on an officer's privately purchased cap. Government-issued caps (which by default met all the requirements) did not have Gepruft stamps.
Occasionally one will see an officer's cap with a Gepruft stamp, which indicates that the cap was upgraded from an EM/NCO cap - the question of when this upgrade was done (ie switching the black strap and buttons for the silver) can never be answered.
At least, this is my understanding from everything I've read - I wasn't there.
BR,
Clive

The above cap is an Eigentumsmuetze or Extramuetze, and as such could be worn by all enlisted and Unterfuehrer ranks. Consult the clothing regulations of the Reichswehr/Heer ca. 1935 which state that all ranks could purchase their own items of uniform. This statement is also in the German version of Schlicht/Angolia from Motorbuchverlag. The removal of the cap spring was forbidden in regulatiuons, but also tolerated, in fact. See the Kraus book from the curator of the Ingolstadt museum on imperial and Rw uniforms on this point. And, look at the headwear with a peak of the average German of the 1920s and 1930s, as well, in fact. The cap with the broken front was also Modisch for other groups in society, as well.

[Bob Coleman]

When I had a very large head gear collection in the 60's, I had several private purchase other ranks Heer visor caps that had officer quality wool tops and silver chin strap buttons with the leather chin strap. I am sure that the wear of these hats was limited to walking out dress uniform and not day to day wear.
Bob

[RobertCOUTTS]

Question answered but have another.

Thanks guys for all that input, my query on the difference between E/M and NCO Caps is answered. So I guess this Cap is then a private purchase but is only for E/M or NCO's, would this mean a Cap like this could not be upgraded to an Officers Cap if the owner was promoted?.
cheers Bob

[Lignemaginot]

I would imagine that promotion from Other Ranks to Officer was an extremely rare event. Having said that, if an OR were to be "promoted" to officer, I can't imagine any reason why he couldn't change the chin strap on his hat (privately purchased or government issued) in order to make it an officer's cap.
Earlier, you asked if it were possible for a government issued cap to be an officer's cap - yes, absolutely. But neither a OR or an officer's government issued cap would have a Gepruft stamp, so knowing whether you're looking at a real officer's government issued cap or an OR government-issued cap that has been upgraded (either during the war or, more likely, post war) would be impossible (unless you can see traces of the remains of the black leather that sometimes sticks to the cap during poor storage).
BR,
Clive